Am I the only person who is concerned about the amount of information we are demanding from government about hardware used in current war situation where our troops are deployed?
Yesterday, there were rumours abound on world sites stating a helicopter had been shot down somewhere in Helmand province, killing 6 people. A tragedy but there was nothing on the BBC or any British MSM site so I decided to rely on a brief report in the LA Times for confirmation.
Richard North has kindly solved the problem with regard to the MSM's silence.
D- Notices have been used for years by UK governments to 'protect national security'. I consider some have been issued more to protect politicians rather than the country's security but how are the public to judge?
We have a government which has lost much of the population's trust and in that situation people become more aware when lies are circulated. This started when Tony Blair lied about the reason for the Iraq war and also the whitewash inquiry into the death of Dr David Kelly.
Is the amount of detailed information we are calling for putting the lives of our soldiers at risk? Why is it essential the public know the numbers of helicopters in Afghanistan? As some have said in recent days the Taliban will already know the numbers because they can count but should we be making it easier for them reporting every last detail?
We now live in a world where information, some well researched and some purely speculation, is available at the click of a power switch and our military matters are discussed openly and available world-wide. Of course we need to know when our troops are short of equipment and kit because then we, the electorate, can pressurise the government into making improvements but where is the fine line between our security and our interest? The police have very defined lines when they can use the 'the investigation is on-going therefore we cannot comment' and that is acceptable to the public. Isn't it time a more defined line, in defence issues, was drawn by politicians?
I doubt the time is right because this government has shown it will do anything and everything to remain in power - even using bereaved families to repeat their mantras. Once trust is broken it can never be fully revived.
The genie of the internet will never go back in its bottle, governments will always say what they want us to hear and people the world over will continue to seek information. The question of national security versus public interest has become a much finer line that 30 years ago - in many ways a good thing as long as it isn't life threatening.
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Everywhere the human soul stands between a hemisphere of light and another of darkness on the confines of two everlasting hostile empires, - Necessity and Free Will. ~Thomas Carlyle, Essays, "The Opera"
its the devil or the deep blue sea
as mother would say
Afternoon Niko, hope you're keeping fine. Very profound mood you're in today. I rather liked it.
The number of helicopters only are important if we don't have them.
The Yanks have 120 so that number is meaningless.
We have 20 or 10 or 6 actually working.
That is important to know when our troops are being killed, beacuse they are rattling about in recycled open-toed Land Rovers because we have not 40 or 60 helicopters.
The use of private contractors is endemic in both Iraq and Afghanistan because that is where the money is for the corporations. Many firms and individuals have made a lot of money out of the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I am not surprised at all that the helicopter was not owned or operated by a national army.
If it was a one-off and the Taliban got lucky it's sad but just one of those things. What will be scaring all the Western armies in Afghanistan is that the Taliban have got hold of an effective anti-helicopter weapon. With a good supply of anti-aircraft missiles the Taliban could make it much more difficult in Afghanistan.
Perhaps the military helicopters are too well armoured and have enough defensive systems to cope with missile attacks especially if the missiles are not state of the art but civilian helicopters won't have the training or capabilities to do that.
What that means is that the armies and troops who rely on civilian contracted helicopters will have to supply and fly them themselves which will require more helicopters and manpower to do the job they've currently hived off to the contractors.
For the Governments involved that will mean more costs, more manpower and more chance for casualties. They will be worried about this till it becomes clear how it happened and what the Taliban used.
On the subject of D-notices, the internet is hated by all governments because they can't control it and because it's trans-national and not owned by corporations.
The cry is always, "Think of the children!", but the monitoring and filtering requirements are always driven by the need of governments to control the information reaching their subjects.
A quick google news search will bring you all the news you want on the helicopter crash.
Yes well me wifes ??th birthday tomorrow am actually rushing around sorting out a secret birthday bash..(Wife is being willfully blind).
subrosa
you seen this story
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jul/17/british-airways-cash-call
The cash-strapped airline will raise £300m by selling convertible bonds and take control of another £330m in bank guarantees that had previously been set aside for its pensioners in the event of the airline falling into insolvency.
I thought we had seen an end to company's raiding their pension funds..Cant believe it
Just blogged again on this story but questions on the crash were asked in Parlaiment yesterday by Ann WInterton and she was fobbed off by both Milipede and "Slow Bob" Ainsworth. More details here
It's just impossible to enforce DA-notices these days - that's one of the reasons why governments want to control the internet. I, too, was shocked to see this on EU Ref. after hearing and seeing nothing at all in the British press/tv.
Of course it's important to know when our troops are killed Bugger Lugs. Why isn't it important for us to know how many are so badly maimed they'll never work again?
Aye Doug, one of the US sites I read had quite a bit about how the Taliban possibly managed to procure a machine to do that.
It was difficult to get much detail early yesterday on the crash Doug and the LA Times was one site which provided some info.
Today it's everywhere.
Jings Niko, I am impressed. I hope it's a bring a bottle do because you don't want to spent all your pocket money on booze for friends.
You'll both enjoy it anyway and be grateful she's turning a blind eye - I'd be querying your every move. :)
Aye Niko, I read that but BA are pulling some punches in the past couple of weeks with asking staff to forgo pay rises etc.
I can believe it, sadly.
I'll go and read it FL. I can hear what these two labour fellas said as I type. :(
Yoohoo GV, it was a friend in Germany who alerted me to it yesterday and said it was all over their media. Hence my start to search.
D-notices have to be revamped, but now we have heads of the army thinking he is better off speaking to MSM reporters instead of being round a table with politicians, there's little hope of anything being kept confidential.
EU Referendum's latest post has an update on Dannett the man on his own mission.
Why Sub, because it suits the political masters that we do not know.
How long before they try to put a "cordon sanitaire" around Wooton Bassett or have all photography banned their under Anti terrorist laws?
Not so far fetched I ventur.
They Yanks seem to survive OK with a greater freedom of information than we are allowed.
And on a similar thread did anyone see the documentary last noght on C 5 about the traitorous Edward, the would-be King?
I am sure that there were all sort of covers up going on the hide his treachery and the deaths his Nazi blabbings and espionage caused.
Can we dig him back up and hang him in retrospect?
Talking about treachery, how will handle Blair now that he is European King?
Will it be a garotte, a guillotine,the noose or a firing squad?
Personally I prefer something apposite and biblical like a good stoning.
A helicopter "crashed" last week, on 7 or 8th July, killing two Canadian soldiers and the British Officer Captain Babington Brown. The apparent crash is still being investigated. So perhaps two helicopters shot down?
I have tried to extract numbers from the MOD website as to numbers of wounded and injured - but it is confusing with the various military initiatives being individually listed, amalgamated with previous yearly figures and the differential nature of "very seriously wounded" and "seriously wounded" and not always exclusive of those unfortunate to suffer accident and physical illness. It appears that over 2,200 required evacuation from Afghanistan between Jan 2006 and the present - which is around two every day for the past three and a half years?
It is redundant to mention civilians killed and injured as well as Afghan Army deaths but they each matter to some poor family.
Hooray, could this story be the one to finally bring this lot down. Trace how these mercenary helicopters get UN/NATO work from Jimmy's unsavoury lot and we would be on a roll. The blogger community might get it's biggest victory to date. Keep digging gang! Any Tory bigwigs reading, get off your arses.
This is a long-running debate, going back over many wars....the ineffectiveness of many British equipment types in World War 2(Battle and Blenheim bombers, most tanks until 1945, pretty much everything except for the Hurricane, Spitfire, Mosquito, Lancaster, Lee-Enfield, and 6pdr/17pdr guns).
Government will keep secrets when it wants to and release them when it suits them.....the paras in the Falklands were shocked to hear the BBC announce their attack at Goose Green.
There's plenty more under wraps than we're hearing....the IED technological battle will be fascinating to read about in a decade or so.
I think there are more people around these days Jess who firmly believe certain things should be in the public domain and not held back. I remember that well Jess, at the time of the Falklands there were quite a few details issued which should have been sub rosa.
The IED battle will be ongoing for years as each side improves and improves their technology, but I believe we're keeping up with the fight. It could well be a couple of decades before the public know the story.
Defence of the Realm is a good source to start OR. They're as informed as any blogger IMO.
Clarinda, the MoD has precise numbers with details of injuries graded but they don't want the public to know. That's why you've had difficulty working it out.
I think the likes of Jess will explain the various grades but from my knowledge VSW and SW are people who have little chance of living an independent life.
It's not redundant to mention civilians but it's not our country's job to do that. The Afghanis should be noting these.
Last week I read somewhere 80% of deaths caused by IEDs are civilian. The taliban are quite happy to blow up their own for their own ends. The numbers must be quite high and of course higher with combat civilian deaths involved.
I actually sat and watched that programme Bugger Lugs. Why is the CIA material now available and no UK intelligence material?
You may not be wrong about Wootton Bassett. The government could say the amount of people turning out was a security threat.
Don't speak about Blair ...
Leaving aside the security issues there is an interesting article by the comedian Frank Skinner in the Times on the way that our increased access to information has on our perception of war.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/frank_skinner/article6717113.ece
I don't think I agree with everything he says but I think he is absolutely right that nowadays we know too much about war to ever give it our unqualified support. But we are perhaps more naive than our forebears at the same time as we are more knowing. Most people want to believe there is a moral element to war when there rarely is. The obvious exception was of course WW2 which was a battle between good and evil. But perhaps that is the problem - that has given people an expectation that war is about good triumphing over evil.
Very well said Indy. My generation certainly think that war means good winning over evil but more and more are seeing today's wars aren't that at all. They're power wars and the US of course is right there in the middle.
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