Friday, 24 May 2013

Enough Political Platitudes, Time For Action

The horrors of Wednesday afternoon in Woolwich will stay in the minds of many for years.  It will be perpetually in the thoughts of the family of Drummer Lee Rigby for the rest of their lives and I can't even begin to imagine the pain and torment they must be going through today and for many future years.  None would have given a thought that their son/husband/father/brother/uncle would not have been safe while serving in his own country.

Drummer Lee Rigby leaves behind a wife and a two year old son. His murder was a hellish tragedy.

But how many of you felt the media were goulish in their reporting?  The repeated pictures of the murderers were disgusting and must have been extremely upsetting for Drummer Rigby's family.

The wall-to-wall reporting on the BBC and Sky only fuelled the murderers' desire for publicity and they've certainly had that.  Every detail of their lives is being reported and too much information being divulged; all in is an attempt to instil more fear into the public's minds.

Our politicians' and media's reaction to this horrific crime has been to over-react and it's this image which has been whirling round the world. Why did the PM need to call a COBRA meeting twice and create more fear?  Terrorism gets its momentum from such fearful responses. From the PM trying his best - and failing miserably - to appear statesman-like on the street outside No 10, to the knee-jerk suggestion that soldiers openly wear their uniforms outside barracks, was an insult to the intelligence of our military. In the 80s our service personnel were instructed not to wear uniform outside military areas unless absolutely necessary as they were targets for terrorists. The same ruling should stand today.  To suggest otherwise is asking far too much from our military and politicians are shunting the responsibility of their poor decisions in the past on to the shoulders of today's HM Forces.

One of the murderers was born in England, but surely we shouldn't be surprised that a couple of young, converted radical Islamists decided they would do what the Islamic extremist Parviz Khan attempted to do in 2008; kidnap and behead a British soldier. This terrorist was sentenced and shut away for life only this month and perhaps the publicity from that motivated these individuals, who knows? Richard Littlejohn has his opinion and you don't need to be a Daily Mail reader to agree with much of his article.

The BBC had two interviews yesterday which caught my attention, Apart from the continual 'It's nothing to do with Muslims' and 'Muslims have been betrayed', the two interviewees gave an insight into Britain's Muslim world. Both men were Muslims themselves and were interviewed at different times of day.  One was from the Quilliam Foundation and the other from Centri; two organisations  involved in counter-extremism and they supplied a similar message: much more needs to be done to rid the country of Muslims who preach extreme Islam and both admitted there are still mosques and imams who do this openly, without protest from their Muslim community or the wider population.

The Centi speaker said our politicians are afraid or refusing to really tackle the groups and organisations that call for actions like this horrible crime. He was passionate in his plea for politicians to stop pandering to the Muslim leaders who insist that all is well within their communities and recognise that past attempts to bring radicalisation to a halt has failed. We need different tactics and more honest communication between the parties.  If one side insists there are no problems yet the other side has the evidence there is, then surely it's the responsibility of the other side to ensure their evidence is accepted by the other party? We adhere to a Human Rights Act which protects criminals and will, eventually, be the straw that breaks society in these islands. Other countries deport villains yet we spend millions every year going through the court system, only to have another judge say no to the deportation of many whose aim is to pit one section of society against another.

None of this will be of help to the family of Drummer Lee Rigby.  He wasn't even wearing uniform but a Help for Heroes T-shirt. His killers had a plan and it worked.
His family and himself would also have had plans. These have now been torn apart because our political leaders refuse to acknowledge there are on-going problems within the Muslim community. We pride ourselves on being a tolerant society, but there's responsible tolerance and ignorant tolerance. We need to see much more responsible tolerance in this country. There is no place in this country for preachers of hate and murder, yet they walk the streets. The British style of toleration is not responsible and an incorrect ideology.

RIP Drummer Lee Rigby.  I do hope your murder results in serious action instead of wall-to-wall talk. You deserve nothing less and a whole lot more.


Dave Allison said...

Soldiers in the UK volunteer.
They volunteer to go to countries which have done nothing to us, but do have drugs or oil.

We are all targets for allowing the slaughter of innocents.

Dioclese said...

The thing I find most alarming is not the media coverage, but the moronic postings on YouTube and the like claiming that, like Boston, it was all faked by the government because they want to control us.

Sadly this is also perpetuated on the Max Farquar blog, a site I used to have respect for but not any more if he is going to spread this sort of nonsense.

Free speech is one thing. Spreading this sort of ridiculous conspiracy theory lunacy is quite another. I'm sure drummer Lee Rigby's family will be greatly relieved to know that he is still alive in hiding and wasn't really killed. What tosh! These people are brain dead and have no idea of the hurt they cause for their five minutes of attention seeking 'fame'

English Pensioner said...

Our soldiers should be able to wear their uniform when off duty and carry side-arms.

subrosa said...

Would you prefer the UK to have no military then Dave?

Or would you prefer the country's safety to be held in the hands of conscripts.

They have no choice where they are deployed. They are totally at the beck and call of our elected politicians.

Anonymous said...

This will probably go down badly... but here goes.

We should remember too that a soldier was jailed the other day for getting drunk in Afghanistan and shooting a ten year old boy, just because he could.

We need to treat other people with respect. We need to stop going to their countries and wreaking havoc, killing indiscriminately, and assuming that because we are white and western, not to mention, as David Cameron recently said, 'christian', that we have an inalienable right to do so. These days were probably over 150 years ago.

I loathe violence of any kind, and I hope that the people who were responsible for this atrocity in England rot in hell; but I also hope that the soldier who killed the 10 year old does the same.

As I do with the Irish Christian terrorists who spent 30 years and more killing people who had a different view of Christianity from them.

And as I do with the Blairs and Bushes of this world who had the arrogance to believe that as powerful, but stupid, white men, they had the god given right (and yes, Bush did say that God told him to do it) to invade another country, kill tens of thousands of its citizens, mishandle the whole process and leave that country 10 times worse off than it had been before they went in, removing their troops when it became electorally suicidal to leave them there.

This may, in the current emotional climate where the BNP and UKIP are calling for people to join them, an unpopular view, but as my Granny says, "whit's good tae gie,s no ill tae tack". And by god we give it out.

In my view one human being's life is as important as the next, even if their skin is a different colour and they believe in "gods". Any of them.

subrosa said...

I haven't viewed YouTube or any other blogs about this Dioclese and thanks to you I won't bother.

subrosa said...

They do in some countries EP but that wouldn't be permitted here, unfortunately. Remember the stushie about them even wearing uniform when at the Olympics?

subrosa said...

Was the filmed and sent round the world Tris? I did hear about it but only because of my interest. The soldier will be dealt with harshly. Our justice system and jail system detests soldiers.

These two murderers will be imprisoned and their every whim catered for. They'll possibly meet up with other radicals and learn to play the system. They'll be heroes in jail. Unlike the drunken soldier.

Once again, I ask the question I did of Dave Allison. Would you prefer no military in the UK?

Until you've spoken to at least one long-serving soldier about the conditions in places such as Iraq and Afghanistan, you really can't understand the mind of a soldier.

But we do need a defence force and one which is highly trained. Amongst over 100,000 personnel there are sure to be some butters who slip through the system or break because they can't handle the tasks anymore. Yes they volunteer, but be thankful they do, because you could be in their place if we recruited by conscription.

Yes, indeed I agree we are as important as the next person, but then power interferes. Power can be dangerous as we all know. We are in a power struggle between those few who think their beliefs are superior to the majority of British folk.

It will take generations to make right - if ever.

F***W*T TW****R said...

and you can bet your bottom dollar that now that the ice is broken, so to speak, it'll happen again and again.

Dioclese said...

I think that's wise, Rosie. There really is some seriously demented bad taste out there!

JRB said...

This was without doubt the most heinous of crimes and my heart and sympathy go out to his family. May he now rest in peace.

However the cynic in me believes that this horrendous event has come at the most opportune moment for a beleaguered Mr Cameron.
He can put the embarrassment of recent backbench revolts over Europe and gay marriage and the growing questions over his leadership behind him. He can now milk the situation with a plethora of platitudes and overt gestures, whilst indulging the excesses of the media. Just so that he can appear to take on the mantle of the concerned statesman.

If only we could all live by the maxim that is @tris’s last paragraph

William said...

You'll have to tell me where the Christian terrorists where. Certainly not in NI which was an issue of land, government than religion.

Islamic terrorism is religious based.

Tbh, anyone who tries to suggest it's motivated by foreign policy actions simply isn't thinking straight. When you decide to decapitate someone, you are no longer thinking rationally. You are going to do so even if the UK becomes a pacifist state.

The only solution, imo, is to ban Islam and shut down every mosque in Britain. It won't happen and the Mohammedan foe will keep coming.

Dave Allison said...

The UK has not been attacked since 1945 or so.

Boys join the army for £300 pw and the chance to fire big guns at brown people.

The boys have little choice of jobs as the polskis have them all.

"Once again, I ask the question I did of Dave Allison. Would you prefer no military in the UK? "

Yes we have nukes and drones. I was reading about the Dresden bombing yesterday.
The UK is and has been the worlds murderer, is it any wonder brown people retaliate.
help for heroes - I think not.
Help for gullible mugs.

Clarinda said...

JRB - not just "opportune" for Mr Cameron's self-preservation but judging by the immediate ravenous responses from 'lord' John Reid and 'lord' Alex Carlile on Newsnight - they want the 'snoopers'charter' (the draft Communications Data Bill) brought into immediate effect. This potential Act they claimed would have caught the murderers at Woolwich before their crime. So indeed an opportune political control move to diminish our society by our very own Westminster masters in collaboration with those who seek to destroy it by murder and mayhem? So we had better enjoy our electronic liberty (such as it is)while we can.

William said...

They don't make them too bright in the Highlands, do they?

Captain Ranty said...

If we keep electing idiots, we will keep supporting their idiotic foreign policies. To vote is to give consent. Remove your consent.

We went to war in Iraq illegally. But hey, we did the job. We protected the oilfields and the interests of big business. Delivering democracy? Only the certifiably insane believe that.

Afghanistan however, was slightly different. We are there to protect the poppy fields and to pave the way for oil pipelines of the future. Delivering democracy? Only the certifiably insane believe that.

We have been sending our sons (and lately our daughters) to foreign climes to fight for hundreds of years. They come back dead and maimed, or mentally damaged and what do we do? Do we thank them? Hell no. We ignore them. Worse, we allow Islamists to insult them publicly. Worse still, we stand by, (making sure we have the camera phones at the ready) whilst serving soldiers are butchered in broad daylight.

The solution?

Retain the nukes, for one. They are a fierce deterrent.

Two: Maintain our armed forces, and pay them well. Keep a well-trained, well-equipped UK Defence Force to erm, defend the UK. Stop sending them into theatres in which we have no quarrel with the combatants. Let their bloody neighbours pitch in.

From then on, we only spank people who spank us.

This nation has not been directly threatened by another nation for 68 years.

Successive governments, and the people who elected them, are responsible for the deaths of millions.

That would include you and me.


William said...

A country doesn't have to be 'directly threatened' in order to use its military. Britain wasn't 'directly threatened' in WWII. There are many reasons why a country might want to use its military and 'direct threat' is only one of them. We should maintain and be proud of our military and shouldn't restrict them solely to use under 'direct threat'.

Captain Ranty said...


The USA (self-proclaimed as the Worlds Policeman) are actively engaged in war-like operations in 74 countries today.

Do we really need to be like them?

Did you spot the difference between the campaigns in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria.

The odd one out?

That would be Syria. No oil in Syria, see?

We could have ended that spat in 6 weeks or less (or made a dramatic difference to the rebels' success) but they have no oil.

So we didn't go, and we didn't help.

Do you honestly want our younglings to die for a drop of oil, or a heroin crop?

I know I don't.


Captain Ranty said...

We dishonour these fine people, even in Scotland:

Haste ye back?

Haste ye oot the door.


Crinkly & Ragged Arsed Philosophers said...

There's no doubt terrorism is to a great extent a fabricated fear developed by bad politics and stupid leaders.

Unfortunately one of the downsides of such idiocy is it confirms the targeted zealots of their zealotry having, in their twisted minds, a legitimate purpose.

But I believe, certainly in the UK, political correctness has created a ridiculouse situation where it only applies to the indigenous population while emigrants are free, not only to practice their religions but to act on its laws, and claim them as a defence in mitigation in our law courts. We only need to refer to the number of honour killings and the recent exposure of the grooming of young white girls to see the arrogance this creates amongst the emigrant population.

So I would say to all the Iman, you have all failed by emphasising your difference and adopting a defensive and negative ghettoization which is ignorant on your part and an insult to ours.

I believe it's is perfectly reasonable and moral for any society to expect any emigrant who wishes to make a home in that society to fully accept and integrate with the laws, social mores, moral values and in the ways these are implemented in the everyday life of that society.

I have no difficulty with anybody whatever their colour, creed or religion, but political correctness turn into an oxymoron when its abused by those it was initially designed to protect and who have decided to flaunt their difference.

CrazyDaisy said...


This attack was long overdue. I'm not surprised one bit, saddened for the lad who lost his life & those families on both sides that will have to live with the pain.

Many posters have common threads that make sense. As CR notes, once you're awake there's no going back to sleep.

Sadly the political system in the UK is rotten to the core. Foreign Policy is an utter mess. Society is teetering on the edge in several places across the land.

Positive & direct leadership is required now, democracy needs to be placed back in the hands of the many, not the 650 sat in Westmidden.

Failure for the UK to admit it is no longer an Empire, World Power or a country of influence on the Global stage, the sooner this mess will get sorted.

Time for us to look inwards & heal successive decades of poor government, the utter contempt for the public & the obsession with personal gain.

I am stood on the abyss, waiting, watching - hoping for a better future but expecting the worst...

Be well.


subrosa said...

I don't think we can further our conversation if you think all military personnel are gullible mugs Dave.

subrosa said...

JRB indeed. Sadly Cameron's attempts at statesmanship left me cold though.

subrosa said...

Oh Clarinda, I should have mentioned these two jumping on the band wagon. Of course what they say is nonsense.

subrosa said...

I think Highlanders are bright William. Do you have anyone in mind for your criticism?

subrosa said...

Another excellent contribution Ranty.

JimS said...

My what a strange set of comments your post has generated, a mixture of self-loathing and distrust of government.

Well anyone is free to hate themselves if they want to and government always needs to be watched but what has any of that got to do with this incident?

We appear to have someone born in this country, brought up in the majority culture who, for reasons unknown, has picked up on an alien doctrine and turned against what should be his own people. Self-loathing and distrust of the government writ large indeed.

A lot of people are asking "why?". It is too late now, we are where we are but just out of interest is there no politician out there, on their death bed, who will explain why we had to import Islam, why we had to give up our freedom to move without security checks etc? Was it worth it?
Make a point in crude racial terms: I can't see China ceasing to be 'yellow', India 'brown' or Africa 'black' so why is it so important that Europe ceases to be 'hideously white' and more importantly its 'culture' overturned?

subrosa said...

Ranty, there are many who criticise our military yet would be the first to shout 'I need help' should we decide to have skeleton forces. Most folk have no idea what goes on in the military. They think all just run around wielding guns.

subrosa said...

Excellent contribution. Thank you Crinkly.

subrosa said...

I wasn't too surprised either CD and even wondered this week, when I heard all the details of Parvis Khan's trial, when the copycats would come out of the woodwork.

Super contribution to the debate CD. Many thanks. :)

Edward Spalton said...

JimS ,
I quite agree about the Western disease of self-hatred which is also matched by self delusion on a massive scale, as witness our politicians prating their "Islam is a religion of peace" nonsense. There are fourteen centuries of evidence to the contrary. How much more do they need?

The word means "submission" and that means that Jihad continues by all means until every last infidel submits - and that means you and me.

I had a conversation with a Muslim missionary some years ago - a young man who spoke with an educated Oxford accent. He told me that it was "oppression for a Muslim " to obey the laws of this country. When I said it was not unreasonable to obey our laws if he came to our country, he said "It is not your country, it is ALLAH'S"

At the trial of Geert Wilders, evidence was given by Professor Jansen, a leading Arabic scholar. The judge who had insisted on the prosecution tried to nobble him by engineering a meeting at a private dinner party. The bench of judges had to be dismissed and a new one empanelled.

Jansen's evidence was this. There is not and cannot be any such thing as "moderate Islam" because the faith ( and its politico-legal structure) are specified for all time in its scriptures and authoritative commentaries. There are, of course, moderate Muslims - people who do not observe all the tenets of the faith all the time - one of which is to wage ceaseless war to bring everybody to submission - although truces are permitted when advantageous to the faithful..

Jansen was not allowed to testify in person by the second bench of judges but his statement was read into the record.

I have cause for gratitude to a Muslim doctor, our late GP who was a most conscientious man. I also thought it was damned silly to go adventuring in Afghanistan when we didn't have an Indian empire to protect. But that silliness pales into insignificance alongside the madness of allowing the immigration of millions of followers of this creed.

We should not blind ourselves to the fact that beliefs have consequences. Nor should we forget that Islam has a doctrine called taqqiya ( dissimulation) which not only permits but commands lying to infidels when it is in the interests of the faith or the faithful. Even the Jesuits did not go quite that far!

Meanwhile India is considering sending troops to help stabilise matters in Afghanistan and that will certainly enrage the Pakistanis. Both India and Pakistan are nuclear states - yet the British taxpayer is being plundered to send aid to both.

It's a mad, mad world, my masters - especially in Westminster and Whitehall.

Dave Allison said...

Mosst people believe we live in a Democracy - Scotland.

Recently I was arrested when protesting at a dangerous road junction here in my village [traffic has trebled ddue to road works on the kessock Bridge].

I was handcuffed and thrown to the ground. The handcuffs were tightened so much, my wrists had purple lines and the skin was broken.

I am a non violent 64 year old.
Police knew me having stopped and/or searched me 4 times.


for two of my encounters with the bully boys.

I engage in perfectly legal and lawful protest. Filming potholes, unsafe roads ....

Scotland is a Police State.

Most "law abiding" citizens don't see the police tactics suffered every day by Muslims and others.

subrosa said...

Jim, I think part of the self-loathing comes from the fact people feel powerless. We elect representatives to represent us and how many do?

You may remember the Mamas and the Papas song 'Great Big Melting Pot'. That's what parts of Britain remind me of today. Why did the politicians want it? To copy America? I don't really know and that makes me feel powerless because no politician has every explained it.

subrosa said...

Edward, thank you for your contribution. Sensible and interesting as always.

Mark The Skint Sailor said...

The increase in Islamic influence in the West I believe directly correlates with the amount of Islamic money invested in Western economies. A significant proportion of money invested in America and the UK is of Saudi origin. Just imagine the amount of influence the threat of the loss of that money and the turning off of the oil taps can gain.

Judge the Government by their actions, not their rhetoric. Immediately after the attack they protected Mosques, but were unsure about whether soldiers should wear uniform in public.

Although its not overt, everyone in the back of their minds thinks that Islam is being protected. And there's a huge economic reason why it is.

subrosa said...

Very good points Delphius and some we may not have considered.

It's the old adage 'follow the money' isn't it?

Mark The Skint Sailor said...

Absolutely. They have a huge amount of influence our domestic and foreign policy.

Plus they actively fund the extreme Wahhabbi version of Islam which came from Saudi.

In order to solve the problem of radical Islam you first have to solve the problem of Saudi Arabias's huge influence on the Islamic world.

Its the Elephant in the room no one can afford to recognise.

subrosa said...

Not only the Islamic world Delphius. The Saudis have considerable influence in the west too.

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