Wednesday, 27 July 2011

Can We Wait That Long?

We’ve had the NOTW and now we’ve had the tragedy in Norway. We’re living in an economy, which has at best stalled, and depending where you live is in recession. We have a Chancellor telling us he’s doing a wonderful job and the UK is a safe haven (for whom and from what?). He also claimed he’d brought interest rates down with the only evidence being he’d reduced the interest rate being charged to Ireland for the loans he gave them. That’s the loans we can’t afford to make. Not to mention the £9.4 billion he signed away to the IMF, which is money we don’t have and which we have to borrow.

During all of this the MSM have been at their best. Very little criticism, little if any real reporting and jumping on the bandwagon galore. They have grabbed the extreme right wing link of the mass murderer in Norway and are already speaking about bringing forward additional legislation to gain the powers they deem necessary to further restrict legitimate views along with extremist views, which of course are the legitimate target.

The left wing MSM march forward emboldened by their apparent triumph over reducing Murdoch’s power whilst maintaining and developing their influence. Where is the voice of reason? Where is the voice that argues for debate? The BBC will reduce the input from AGW sceptics based on last weeks convenient and contrived report no further debate there either.

The Chancellor. The Government. Have they the slightest idea of the seriousness of the state of the UK economy? 0.2% growth in the economy is shocking, disgraceful and wasteful. The deep cuts? What deep cuts? The government continues to borrow more money.

The EU faces ruin. We have to rely on the German people, and the French to a lesser degree to wake up to the money being provided by their governments to keep the EU show on the road. They must call a halt or continue to pay into the greatest pyramid scheme ever. Who will be left holding the parcel when the music stops?

Perhaps the greatest need is for democracy to actually work. It would seem that the world has become bereft of democracy. Democracy in name only is there for us all but democracy, which allows us to feel that we have opinions, which count, and mechanisms in place which allow the majority to see their views carried but at the same time allow the minority to be able to voice their concerns.

Perhaps things will have to become much worse before they become even a little better. Can we wait that long? 


Oldrightie said...

Petem, sometimes we have little choice but wait. I cannot shake the parallels with the late 1930s. Everybody hoping for the best, fearing the worst. An excellent piece capturing that mood.

JRB said...

Thank you petem for an excellent piece.

But what can we do.

On major issues, I write to my MP who happens to be in the government. I am sure a sigh goes round his office when yet another letter arrives from this girning old git. So back comes the standard ‘bugs’ letter.

On local issues, I write to my local council or councillor. I am sure a sigh goes round whichever office when yet another letter arrives from this same girning old git. So, yet again, back comes the standard ‘bugs’ letter.

On issues that affect me directly I try to get involved. I am one of a number of ‘patient representatives’ on various NHS committees, but we are few against a large bureaucratic establishment.

Whilst trying to remain positive and up-beat in any in-put, it is often hard not to be stereotyped as ‘that girning old git’.

To often one feels as but a voice in the wilderness.

So, what can we do - and who will listen?

Jo G said...

" we’ve had the tragedy in Norway."

Errrr, no. We've had the terrorist attack in Norway. After all, that's what we'd call it had Muslims done it.

Joe Public said...

@ Jo G

"Errrr, no. We've had the terrorist attack in Norway. After all, that's what we'd call it had Muslims done it."

However: As soon as the perpetrator was known, it was immediately reported that Norway had had a Christian terrorist attack.

When those of Eastern Origin carry out a terrorist attack, (as at London, and, Glasgow Airport) they're reported as simply 'Asians', even though I understand they're exclusively 'Muslim'.
For a list on not-AngloSaxon names.

For some reason the Beeb avoids mentioning their religion.

All Seeing Eye said...

UK is a safe haven (for whom and from what?)

The economies of Greece? Portugal? Spain? And those are just the places within immediate tactical nuclear weapons range.

There has been no "global" economic "crisis"...the issues only hit a few places. No problems apart from knock-on annoyance in Australia, Canada, fact just about anywhere else apart from the basket cases in the EU and Obama's mess in the US.

We're screwed because we tied ourselves to the EU rather than keeping Commonwealth trade open.

There isn't a single "cut" as petem rightly says. Expenditure rushes forward unabated and borrowing increases. It's only the *rate* of the increase which is *slowing* now.

0.2% growth is actually not bad at all in the circumstances. Remember Liam Byrne's note "There Is No Money Left" and there's one hell of a mess to clear up.

Randomly giving money to India's space program and Greek pensions is not the solution!

Now is the time for *real* cuts in the bloated size of the state. A serious realignment away from our EU axis and, as long as the US continues on this self-destructive path, them too.

petem130 said...

Thanks Old Rightie. The likeliehood is we'll all just keep going and the powers that be will continue to keep the train on the rails just enough to survive. The debt crisis in the USA now slowly winding out is just another example.

Unexpected and catastrophic change looks like our only hope. Imagine that being our best solution. How bad things truly have become.

petem130 said...

Yes there are a lot of people out there JRB, yourself included, who want change and work within the system to try to deliver it. It's not all doom and gloom apart from the daily MSM content anyway.

Who is courageous enough to make a stand, deflect the onslaught of the MSM with their slurs and insults and have the resources to make it happen? They must exist. Their moment in history awaits.

petem130 said...

Sorry Jo G but it is a tragedy. Regardless of who, why and for what reason all of these terrible wastes of life are tragedies. For the victims and their families, those involved afterwards and the perpetrators.

Let's leave the descriptors of those who cary them out for the politicians and MSM. We know they will bend things to suit their purpose. What does that make them?

petem130 said...

Well, Joe Public the MSM play with words. NO surprise there. They have their own agenda which allows them to ignore democracy, balance and impartiality.

Jo G said...

Joe Public, WRONG, all the "Christian" connections were severed amost before they were uttered. Catch up.

Pete, shame on you that you dismiss what happned in Norway in one sentence. It was a terrorist attack by a man who HATES Muslims. You should condemn that utterly.

This was a man whose lawyer now seeks to call "insane". He was not insane. He was, and is, a terrorist and we should treat him exactly like we treat terrorists whose skin is darker than his is.

petem130 said...

All seeing eye.
If the Uk were a safe haven the world would be rushing to invest in the Stock Exchange. They aren't.

As things stand the exposure of UK debt and inability to pay may come sooner rather than later. Greece is still a big problem continuing to happen. The latest sticking plaster won't be big enough. Oh dear.

petem130 said...

Jo G,

I stand by what I have written. racism does not feature in my post or my replies. The MSM and the BBC in particular reduce debate by using racism etc. as a means of shouting down anyone who does not agree with their views. We should all be careful not to be drawn into their way of doing things.

All Seeing Eye said...

petem, I think that you are making a black and white distinction between just a "safe haven" and a "money-pit".

It's much more nuanced than that. I'd rather have my money where it is now than in the UK. I'd rather have my money in the UK than Greece if that were my only choice.

On a sliding scale the UK is better than you make it out to be. But far from being as good as it could be with a few policy switches.

Jo G said...

Petem, I didn't mention racism. I mentioned terrorism.

Jo G said...

And YOU Petem, failed to call it terrorism. Was it because the guy who did was white??

All Seeing Eye said...

JoG, I see no racism and only sense in the (passing) reference petem makes about Norway.

In the effort to jump on a bandwagon politicians always want to be seen as doing "something". And that is what they will do. Whether it just targets the problem of nutters or ends up smothering the rights of everyone else to freedom of speech on the way...that is irrelevant.

*Something* must be done, is the cry of the BBC - and therefore the media-aware politician.

Jo G said...

All Seeing Eye, what a name for one so blind.

A "passing reference" to Norway sums up your approach and also shoots it down. Work it out.

Petem, we have this phrase, "terrorism". People who make bombs, explode them and then go on to do the things on the island off Norway that this terrorist did, need to be called terrorists. Do think it over.

Jo G said...

"I stand by what I have written. racism does not feature in my post or my replies."

Petem, I didn't ask you to indulge in racism. I asked you to call what happened in Norway what it is. Terrorism. You seem to have more trouble with that word than with racism. Why would that be?

All Seeing Eye said...

JoG, I think that "a passing reference" is fair to describe a single sentence in a whole post...don't you?

Observer said...

The vast majority of the MSM is right wing, not left wing.

The BBC isn't left wing either, it is middle class & metrocentric.

The Guardian are thoroughly enjoying the Murdoch downfall, & why shouldn't they. They did a huge amount to break the story.

Observer said...

I have to say I agree that calling the Norway incident a tragedy is a bit odd. That is not a word used in connection with 9/11 or 7/7 much.

The man who perpetrated that is a terrorist, & unfortunately there are more like him out there.

They want to bring terror to muslims.

Jo G said...

Exactly Observer. What happened in Norway is no different to what happened in the Twin Towers atrocity. Alas some in the UK want to ignore that. They want to call it anything but a terrorist act.

All Seeing Eye said...

That is not a word used in connection with 9/11 or 7/7 much

Googling "9/11 tragedy" gets me 32 million hits.

Just saying...

Observer said...

Googling 9/11 terrorist attack will get you a lot more.

Jo G said...



Jo G said...

All-Seeing and a white anti-Muslim killing nearly a hundred people gets you what? Nothing? Ah, that's cos he's white, right? And therefore can't be a terrorist. Jesus, can you believe this shit?

All Seeing Eye said...

Observer: yes, I concede, 32mil hits is trivial. Point taken. Nobody has really used the phrase.

JoG: No? Umm..whatever that referred to I'm sure you're right too.

All Seeing Eye said...

JoG I believe the "not using the word Terrorist" argument is one you're having with petem

Observer said...

''If the Uk were a safe haven the world would be rushing to invest in the Stock Exchange. They aren't.''

Actually UK bond yields are still remarkably good, considering.

We are nothing like Greece, there is no sovereign debt crisis lingering, & although George Osborne's policies are not leading to growth, he can always amend them. He will have to.

Observer said...

I think perhaps the writer of the original post could resolve the argument, by admitting that the man in Norway was a terrorist. He deliberately targeted members of the Norwegian Labour Party & caused panic & fear in the population to further his agenda of getting rid of muslims.

That is the actions of a terrorist.

Joe Public said...

@ Jo G 20:25

"WRONG, all the "Christian" connections were severed almost before they were uttered. Catch up."

I suggest it is you who "Catch up":-

In your response to Petem you continue "It was a terrorist attack by a man who HATES Muslims. " Remind us, many muslims did he kill? Your source for your statement is........?

Crinkly & Ragged Arsed Philosophers said...

The £9.4 billion to the IMF - the increase in EU contribution of 97% - the £2.9 billion loaned to the Bank of Ireland on Saturday last by RBS in order the BoI from being bankrupt and nationalised; but primarily to save the RBS from taking a massive - between £25 -40 billion - hit on its BoI investments.

And what do we get from the MSM - The Olympics and more Olympics and the money it will raise for London.

£750 million they reckon; and it only cost £9.2 billion and its under budget - though one building alone, the one with the swimming pond in it was costed at £73 million and came in at over £250? And from the Express and Daily Retard that calls itself Mail we're furnished with headlines telling us only one in forty claiming sickness benefit is genuinely not fit to work!

Balanced reporting, I think not - more a fight for the mantle to become the establishments new screws of the news.

The truth behind all this is blindingly obvious, the idiocy of the financial shamans and their surreal industry is being used by the politicians as an excuse to advance their ideologies of less government responsibility in favour of privatisation irrespective of the misery and deprivation it brings to the needy and less well off in society.

That said, I'll close with a prediction. No matter how deep the cuts in welfare or services, or how small the government becomes none of it will be reflected on the amount of tax they demand from you - except for the mega -rich and global corporations - Osborne has already granted them in his last budget the right to earn their money in Britain and run with it to their favoured tax haven.

I wouldn't by a used car, with money stolen from my most deplored enemy, from Cameron, Clegg or Osborne.

Observer said...

He killed a lot of young people connected with the Labour Party, as well as other innocents who happened to be in the vicinity of the Labour leaders Office, because he wanted to force a change in policy, as he hates muslims & thinks they are a threat.

He is a terrorist who is inspired by hatred of muslims, it's quite straightforward.

petem130 said...

Okay so 9/11 and 7/7 weren't tragedies? Basic dictionary meaning of tragedy -A disastrous event, especially one involving distressing loss or injury to life.

Playing with words? Not me. I was writing about a variety of events and the way in which the MSM, BBC and politicians respond. This is not an article about racism or terrorism.

It's about the failure of democracy. Our democracy. Democracy in the UK, EU/Europe, USA etc.

Crinkly & Ragged Arsed Philosophers said...

Corrections - I should have read the last post before submitting - there should "to save" before "the BoI" and by should be buy in the used car quip.

Jo G said...


"Okay so 9/11 and 7/7 weren't tragedies?"

Don't you dare!

No one said those atrocities weren't tragedies.

If that's the best you can come back with then I pity you. But what you have come back with is lower than a snake's belly. You disgust me.

Jo G said...


Why can't you call the Norway one a terrorist act Pete, is it because the guy who did it is white? Do whites not do terrorism then, simply because they are white?

Jo G said...

You are the one who is "playing with words" Petem. You have played in the most appalling sense. You should be ashamed.

Jo G said...

Observer, not straightforward enough for some who frequent this blog obviously. They're ok with what happened in Norway. They won't call it "terrorism" because it wasn't done by someone spouting Islam. That's the only kind of "terrorism" they are happy to pin labels on. Anyone else can kill who they like. A lot here are ok with that. I won't be back personally.

Observer said...

petem you were picked up on using the word tragedy about a terrorist attack.

Now you are correct that widespread loss of life is tragic, but I still think that it was a peculiar description to use, especially when you went on to say mass murderer.

This was not a case of a lone nutjob going on a killing spree, this guy had a purpose, a political agenda, & there are others with the same views.

You are making statements about what you see as poor coverage from the media about events, coverage that doesn't explore the realities of the situation. Are you prepared to admit the reality of the situation in Norway, as it has been brought to your attention?

subrosa said...

Jo, I've been reading the comments here and think one of yours is beyond the pale. Don't get personal please and insult people.

Observer said...

Jo G I am only an occasional visitor myself, but I would not stop reading a blog because some of the posters may have views I don't agree with.

This is an unmoderated blog, which is quite unusual.

It does host some opinions I don't agree with, & sometimes find offensive, but as I am not in favour of censorship then that is the price you pay.

Jo G said...

Jo, I've been reading the comments here and think one of yours is beyond the pale. Don't get personal please and insult people.

Subrosa? Which one?

subrosa said...

Observer, I do moderate this to a degree but I think it important all opinions are voiced. Otherwise why bother debating?

If you find something offensive then you can email me and I'll look into it. I can't be moderating 24 hours a day so I'd be pleased if anyone brings something to my attention.

Jo G said...

Subrosa, which of my comments was "beyond the pale"? I would like to know.

Jo G said...

Observer, sorry, long story.

petem130 said...

Jo G/ Observer

I will repeat again. This post was not about terrorism or racism. The individual references did not deal with detail or justification.

I am as aware as anyone else siting at home watching the news. I could just as easily have cited the death of Amy Winehouse as an example of a tragedy repeated over the years. Or of Blair and Iraq, or of Cameron and Libya.

I will neither comment nor be pushed into going beyond the contents as they are stated or in a manner which is not within the bounds of the intended area of debate.

I respect your views and opinions as I hope you do mine. I would recommend that you publish your own blog article which deals with the issues you have raised and invite comment and debate from those who wish to do so.

subrosa said...

'If that's the best you can come back with then I pity you. But what you have come back with is lower than a snake's belly. You disgust me.'

That one Jo. Not like you to be so rude.

subrosa said...

Well said Petem.

Jo G said...

Excuse me Subrosa. The extract you just quoted was in response to an accusation from Pete that played around with the horrendous events which took place on 9/11 and 7/7. That he adopted such an approach was to me, indeed, lower than a snake's belly. But you attack me? Fine. Message received loud and clear. I was not rude. I stated facts.

Jo G said...

Petem what happened last weekend was no different to the 9/11 and 7/7 terrorist attacks. It was a terrorist attack, even if the guy who did it was white. That was all I was trying to make clear to you, even if you are still not willing to take on board the point I was making. No separate blog required. All I expect is for ordinary people to tell the truth. I surely shouldn't be asked to start my own blog for that? : )

Observer said...

petem you have avoided the question.

You may have started out making one point but it has been queried & you should respond.

It isn't difficult unless you think the incident in Norway was not a terrorist incident. In which case I would like to know your thinking.

Observer said...

I will e mail you if YOU say something offensive subrosa.

As you don't have pre-moderated comments you are not responsible for what other people say, & obviously you can't be on here 24/7.

All Seeing Eye said...

was no different to the 9/11 and 7/7

Many people with those events and one in Norway? I know that's not what you mean but it is an example of an inaccuracy in what you *say*. And what you *say* is inflammatory.

I surely shouldn't be asked to start my own blog for that?

It's a fact that Subrosa is Our Gracious Host here and none of us should abuse that hospitality and courtesy.

I enjoy fighting my corner on sweary blogs and on specialist topic blogs...and I keep my comments appropriate to the locale. I think that is the point being made about your own blog - that you could set your own tone there and people would be free to engage you at that tone.

Doing so here not a liberty I would dare take under Subrosa's roof. Hence me backing off from confrontation upthread.

subrosa said...

I'd really like this discussion to end now because it has become an attack on my guest writer for no reason (see definition below).

The post was not about Norway and Petem's use of the word tragedy was appropriate. Many, many others have used that description in the past days.

A disastrous event, especially one involving distressing loss or injury to life:

Derek said...

Looks like a simple check in a dictionary would have prevented the ad hominen attacks.

The commonality of the events that have been ongoing for centuries, and is continuing with such as various bombings and shootings, is that now we as ‘Westerners’ are treated to more scrutiny than before (is it possible?), and that in itself may give some Islamic fanaticists an edge. At risk of being a theorist, such events are quite possibly long term plans for the continuing racial war – WWIII - people against people. Race against race. Religion against religion.

My gang vs your gang. It starts in school - survival tactics (mostly amongst the boys).

There are random events, and there are co-ordinated events. If they can’t be bombed out of existence, then let them 'eat' each other, and there's always 'food security' and starvation, along with 'health care' for the third world through vaccines, and injunctions will keep those who wish to abide by the law and live in peace at heel through fear into compliance. Bertrand Russell knew it, and spoke it.

Socially and financially deprived, the fuses are laid. The blogosphere spots them, though at times with precious little evidence and there are 'red herrings' that inevitably appear. However, the tell tale traces of unseen hands can often be seen, though the media like to sweep such away.

It would behove everyone to see, and use more tolerance. But intolerance has long been the tool of those who wish the greater global population massively reduced. Theirs is a resource grab. The species are seen to have done its useful work for 'their' own good, there are now too many of them. The 'experiment' needs to be controlled. Solution? Set them at each others throats by selective manipulation of beliefs and economies.

What can we do to survive? Start by looking in the mirror.

Brian said...

petem, Excellent post.

Weekend Yachtsman said...

Thank you Petem, very well put.

Democracy had to be fought for, before, and it will have to be fought for again, if we are ever to get it back.

At present I don't see any significant number of people willing to do the fighting. As long as the bread and circuses continue, this won't change.

Perhaps the current crises are the beginning of the end of the bread and circuses, but whenever the end does come, it will be messy and unpleasant.

And you still need the people to be willing to fight, otherwise you just get another political class arising.

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