Rob C. I read with interest your contributions. You are obviously an intelligent man so I pose to you this.
Cameron has won the general election. Unfortunately the Lisbon Treaty has been ratified as the Czech President signed the documentation some months before the general election.
Cameron, during the campaign promised that he would re-negotiate certain parts of the treaty and people believed him.
At the first meeting of the Heads of Government which is presided by the new President of the European Union, Anthony Blair, Cameron is told in no uncertain terms that he cannot re-negotiate anything.
He is reminded that all former nations are now citizens of the United States of Europe and if Cameron continues to cause problems he will be refused permission to attend any future 'Heads of Local Administrations' meetings (as the new body has been re-named!) President Blair may call. He will also be told he will not have a seat in President Blair's Cabinet.
He is reminded that the EU has the authority, signed by Her Majesty the Queen after Prime Minister Brown had signed the Treaty, to force a local general election in the former United Kingdom to be held, and because of their opposition to the EU the Conservative Party, Ukip, BNP, are all banned from standing in that election!
Far fetched? read the EU Constitution as allegedly ammended by the Lisbon Treay!!
I believe that you, Rob C, like so many people have been conned by Cameron and both Labour and Liberal Democrat Parties.
Once the Czech's sign then our fate is sealed and nothing can be changed! End of story. End of England.
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41 comments:
Sorry Rosa, but the comment on Frasers blog is bullshit.
As I haven't read the Lisbon Treaty Tom I can't comment. Thought it may stimulate a little debate though and also people like me may be tempted to read it.
If you read the Lisbon Treaty you will be in a class of 5 or 6.
Nobody, not even politicians, civil servants or the Devil himself has done so in entirety.
It was also changed with addenda to allow the death penalty throughout Europe under very loosly defined circumstances. This was found out by a German Law Professor but I have no record of the reference although it was spoken about during the Foirsst Oirish Referendum.
Let me know of you get past page 3
I bill indeed Billy but don't hold your breath.
It may sound strange but I did read all of the Mastricht Treaty and once the confuse-the-average-reader language was interpreted, it was enlightening.
Do you think these Treatys are written in that way purely to ensure us plebs won't bother reading it?
Yes it was and I venture 99% of MPs have not read it either.
As I said the initial constitution it was so deliberately boring that they used the Lisbon version to add things in that they guessed would not be noticed.
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=838456
This is a link to the point I made about the death penalty by the Lisbon backdoor.
Not even Caroline Flint, Minister for Europe, bothered to read the document.
In just a few short weeks, the following are consigned to the dustbin:
Our Bill of Rights
Magna Carta
Habeas Corpus
Court de jure
Innocent until proven guilty
And many other freedoms we used to hold dear.
Napoleonic and Roman Law cometh. When it arrives, our rights will goeth.
This bastard union will destroy us. Utterly.
I am in despair. Some days I feel like I am the only one awake in this nightmare.
CR.
The Lisbon Treaty is an amending treaty and as such can only be read in the context of the other treaties that it amends. By itself it is unreadable.
Hi SR - I agree, before Scotland dives headlong into the EU there should be a debate. I've always thought that associated membership was a better position. Part of the club but able to set your own course to a degree. Concerning the Euro, don't know if it is a condition that only members can use it? I think we should at least track it but I'm economically illiterate so can't claim to know what the impact of that might be. It just seems sensible to follow it rather than be stuck to the poor old pound - bulging at the seams with quantitivly eased pennies
I read quite a bit out the additions from the Irish No campaign websites Billy. Thanks for that link. Much appreciated.
No you're not the only one CR, there are many. Why do you think David Cameron has to hold on so tightly to his anti-EU colleagues? Sad they can't speak their minds.
Ah scunnert, so that's why it's pointless any of us reading it, unless we have all the others to hand.
Why are the SNP supporting such a devious organisation? Defeats me really.
I think the SNP has had a debate Dram or they wouldn't have come to the decision to be 'in' Europe.
My problem today is that much has changed within Europe since the original SNP debate and that's why it must be re-examined.
Other countries manage with their currencies and I can't see the Scottish pound not being recognised.
I really would like more information as to why the SNP feel we couldn't manage with our own currency, but of course their euro decision is based upon the 'in Europe' one.
Hi SR
Having looked at GBBG's link to the Student Room, this has the possibility of keeping lawyers in caviar for the next thousand years.
I have a feeling that the signatories of this "scammers charter" only had a hazy idea of what they were signing and yet again we are in the territory of "unintended consequencies". And the enactment of its provisions, including the ones we dont know about....yet,only await the assuming of power of the right/wrong ratbag (your choice ) to eventually cause mayhem.
Somebody on a blog a couple of weeks back predicted a war in Europe within twenty years, it could be less on this showing.
D.
Uh Billy, as pointed out the Death Penalty thing is nonsense.
Thomas
Yes I read that further down after I had posted.
I had followed the original discussion some months back, but not overly.
The reference I pointed was only one of a number which I had googled to give some link. Trust me to post the one where there was a rebuttal. I haven't followed it up as I cannae be ersed.
I just don;t trust the bastards anyway and I live in France.
Since it would be put to a plebiscite after independence, wouldn't that be the time for such a debate?
You plainly see what the UK media does regarding any SNP debate now. It is turned into a "split" and used as a political hammer.
Just because the SNP supports one side doesn't mean that the people of Scotland would post-independence. That's what plebiscites are all about.
I think that it is good, in spite of the criticism that they get for it, that the SNP hasn't worked out all the details of independence. There will be a lot of decisions to be made--that SHOULD be made by the people and not polticians.
Ok. An American opinion so of no great value, but I do think that people deciding for themselves is a good thing. :)
Sorry for butting in.
Jeanne, I for one welcome your post.
I have become more and more disturbed that the day-to-day blogosphere in political Scotland is still driven by the MSM, The Scotsman, The Herald and especially the BBC.
In fact what happens is that some nonsense about the SNP is published or they are smeared by the BBC and all Hell breaks loose in the blogosphere.
I think we need to advance the debate and not allow the MSM to define our independent present never mind our future. They are setting the agenda and running the debate.
We need to know where we are going and to do so we need to know where we are, not what we are told where we are.
Independence is a vehicle not an end in itself. We need to flesh out the Scotland we want.
I was allowed to post such a coment on SCOTSVOICES and received three comments, two of them from me.
http://scotsvoices.blogspot.com/2009/10/where-shall-we-begin.html
Maybe bloggers like blogging, debating and hand to hand combat rather thinking about what we want to create.
Are there any dreamers left or is everybody so taken by today's controversy?
Jeanne, it's always a delight to have your views.
My thoughts are exactly the opposite of yours. For me it is essential we begin to discuss the form of an independent Scotland now, but of course the only party who are prepared to do that is the SNP (the unionist parties refusing to even acknowledge any desire in the country for independence).
These days I tend to ignore much of the media's talk about Scotland and do my best to search for informed views - usually through the blogosphere sadly. Such a shame really because our newspapers and broadcasters ought to be encouraging debate, not stifling it.
Referenda, or plebiscites as you call them, are the people's opinions and not the politicians. Britain doesn't like them, politicians certainly dislike the people having any sense of control.
Your opinion is of value, particularly as you are, like some of my readers, seeing the situation from a distance. Please continue to contribute when you have time.
PS Hope your writing is going well.
Ah Billy, if I'd seen your comment before I replied to Jeanne, I would have just said 'ditto' to her.
I like blogging but I also would prefer if an independent Scotland was outside Europe but a member of the European Council.
Europe will do nothing for Scotland in the long term, in fact it may well harm it.
Are you saying I'm a dreamer Billy? Now just because I sometimes get a little emotional and I can see what I want my country to be in another 50 years time, surely that doesn't mean I'm a dreamer. How I wish I was though. :)
Auch Billy I tried to put a link to your Scotsvoices post on this one, but some problem arose, I just can't get it as a footnote. I'll try something else.
I agree Rosie about looking at the Norway model. I am not at all sure we want to be sucked into an enlarged E.C. Funnily enough I have a poll on my site which is still up which gives a majority for independence outside the E.C. That suprised me I must admit.
Ah DL, I was thinking about a poll myself just today. I voted on yours.
Do you think it would be worth me doing another one? It would include questions about the UK and Scotland I think, but haven't thought of the questions yet!
Thanks. Considering the American tendency to tell the rest of the world what to do, I try to avoid that impression.
That said, I don't really disagree with the two of you and discussion by Scots on the blogosphere or elsewhere is one thing. But I do think that the SNP has to be somewhat careful in how they do put forward ideas. At this point, I believe that they HAVE to win elections. Anything that prevents that also prevents Scotland moving forward toward -- if not independence then deciding what the people do want. I don't think the importance of this can be underestimated.
Sites like the SCOTSVOICES can serve as a place for ideas to develop though, and this is also essential. In fact, I'll add it to the blogs I visit and probably give more of my unasked for advice. ;-)
Ho hum, I oppose Scottish Independence as well we British independence from the EU woe is me.
In seriousness though, if you need Lisbon Treaty help I can probably lend a hand, I had to do a 4000 word essay on it for college, hell yeah.
Jeanne
Unasked maybe but, unwanted, no.
DL
I think and EEC association with the EU would give us wiggle room to see where the EU was actually going and whether it was in our longterm interest to go there.
Immediate accession would be a bit like the The treaty of The Union, once signed it might be that we don't like where it goes and it would take us a few hundred years to get out.
Yes Jeanne, winning elections of course is the main aim of any political party.
This is where the SNP perhaps need to be less positive and more wiley. They've always campaigned on the issues of the day and not the personalities involved.
Time for a wee try with the latter methinks.
Jeanne, if you'd like to contribute a post to Scotsvoices just click on the 'email' bit. The heid bummer and site designer will answer within seconds as he's nothing else to do other than draw buildings or some similar hobby. :)
A Tom, how interesting.
Are any of the rumours true about we're finally no longer in charge of our own country.
I'm not asking for a 4000 word essay!!
You're a bit of a glutton for punishment picking that as your subject or maybe you're just really brave. :)
That's the way Billy, step by step is better than throwing yourself in the deep end.
The idea of an independent Scotland having a full referendum on EU membership would be quite something, and if I lived in Scotland I would queue up outsite my polling station before it opened in the morning to ensure I was the first to vote to leave. It would be the best thing Scotland could ever do.
There is just one snag, however, all us southern Sassenachs would be packking our bags and heading north so we could live free of the EU too!
Sadly, the Socialist SNP will push push to join the euro, will support the Lisbon Treaty and Scotland will lose its status as a nation to become a mere region of the EU under the control of Brussels.
Derek, you'd be surprised how many SNP supporters have, in the past few years, voiced doubt about the current EU. The SNP policy was made some years ago and you, more than most, know the changes which have occurred in very recent years.
Somehow I think the people would demand a referendum and the question could be included on the paper re the euro.
Or am I just dreaming?
I am pleased to hear of the changed attitudes to the EU by the SNP, good luck with that one - I wish more of our Westminster politicians would wake up to the EU problem too.
Derek, I don't think there's a change of heart by the hierarchy in the SNP so the policy that an independent Scotland should join still stands.
What I would like to see is more debate because of the recent radical changes in the form of the EU.
I should have added I'm sure there are many EU sceptics amongst MPs but none is brave enough to stick their head above the parapet.
Their careers matter more than their country.
I think in the case of the SNP and elections, it is more than just "that's what parties do". It is the only mechanism for achieving that plebiscite that so many Scots want.
While the SNP policies seem to have a lot to be said for them (I'm sure some would debate that :) ) at the moment a plebiscite on Scotland's constitutional status the one that matters.
I am always startled and more than a bit horrified to hear politicians say that constitutional matters aren't important enough to debate. That is absolutely the opposite from the attitude over here. Nothing is more important than a people's constitutional protections.
Maybe it would help if you lot wrote your constitution down? Then perhaps people would take it more seriously. But there I go--telling you what to do. ;-)
Jeanne
There is one , as yet, unofficial but "unofficial enough" to be sort of the blueprint.
I will see if I can get a link.
I am reasonably sure I read it in a blog by Lallands Peat Worrier.
He is a lawyer and says about 20 words when one will do, as he gets paid by the ream, I think.
Good ferreting!
http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.com/
Jeanne, found a Wikipedia link to it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_for_Scotland
I can't profess to have read much of the treaty, but skimming over part of it brought me up sharp.
It said something like the forces of EU states (by forces I assume it means Police or Military forces)
are legally allowed to operate in other EU countries to restore order. (Don't ask me for a link, it was late and I've lost it).
To me that was a green light for the EU heads to send in the troops should the government of any member state have restless natives, or decide that breaking away from the EU is a good idea.
Stalinist government detailed in writing: You want to opt out, we send in the tanks, just like the Russians did back in the old days.
Del, I've heard something about that before. Must do some searching I think. It was quickly dumbed down by the media if I remember.
Hope the new job's ok.
The new job is fine. Seems straightforward enough and the people are ok.
As for the Treaty, if it wasn't written in such obtuse language I think there would be an uproar, because of all the things contained within it, but hidden behind sub-clauses and amendments.
I had an evening at it and I lost interest trying to fathom the labyrinthine wording.
Just the fact that you've resumed a form of paid working routine hopefully lifts your spirits now and again Del.
You're about the 4th person to warn me it's more or less illegible, the Lisbon Treaty.
We know why these documents are written in this manner of course. There should be a law against it.
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