In the dead tree version of Saturday's Telegraph there was an article by Henry Samuel about this subject, where he states French MPs claim the reason for this decision is because such clothing is degrading to women.
In a call that won support from senior figures in Mr Sarkozy's government, they demanded that a parliamentary commission considers the fate in France of the burka, where eyes are covered by a fabric mesh and the niqab which has an eye slit.
While France's Muslim Council said the proposal 'stigmatised' Islam, a commission is now expected to be established on the urging of the group of 65 politicians, led by Andre Gerin a communist politician. Many of the group are members of Mr Sarkozy's right-wing UMP party.
Mr Gerin is also mayor of Venissieux which has a high immigrant population and where he complains women cover themselves in 'mobile prisons.' "Our politicians need to stop acting so blind," he said, describing the burka as the mark of Islamic fundamentalism which was not in tune with secular France. A government spokesman said that all options were open, including a ban.
However Eric Besson, the immigration minister, said that France - home to five million Muslims - had already managed to 'strike a balance' between secularism and religious freedoms that it would be 'dangerous' to call into question. In 2004 the country passed a controversial law forbidding conspicuous religious symbols from state schools, including veils, which are banned in government offices.
Dalil Boubakeur, the rector of the Paris mosque, said he approved of a commission 'on condition that they listen to what the experts on Islam have to say". He said many women chose to wear the covering to assert their Muslim identity in a society which they believed was hostile to any type of Islamic headscarf.
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While I detest the burka and its variants I don't think governments should be in charge of folks wardrobes.
When it affects public services such as health, schools etc I think political intervention is required scunnert. What they do otherwise is their own choice.
Personally the only problem I have with it is the security issue and that's growing in some area. How can you know who someone is if you can't see their face? We're expected to place far more trust in those who decided to wear this covering than is anyone else. That is wrong.
Freedom of choice in what you wear is fine, but I suspect many of these woman have the choice imposed upon them through peer pressure or a husband or father's order.
I have a Sikh friend who is very pious, he always wears a puggaree(although I have a suspicion he's going bald heh heh).
He was quite closely involved in that case where a young lad wanted to get his hair cut, but didn't want to upset his parents; he pretended he'd been attacked by racists who had forcibly shorn him.The furore terrified the laddie who then confessed.
Religion eh?
You're right of course Conan. Islam is a patriarchal, misanthropic religion that terrorizes women and girls. That's what probably got Neda killed - she wasn't properly covered up.
Tricky one this, for the State to ban the burka would be as illiberal as Islam imposing it. Banning particular clothing is ridiculous anyway, like banning saggy trousers or short skirts .
Is a Moslem woman wearing the burka as a statement of " stuff you I'm different" any change from punks or goths doing the same thing ?
Dunno really, motorcyclists are required to remove their helmets when entering banks or shops so perhaps a rule that faces must be visible whenever interacting with third parties ( including getting on a bus ) might suffice.
Ban the Burka, yes.
But, that would need to go hand in hand with the UK or Scotland becoming a secular nation, with which I am fully in accord.
This would mean that we would need to dismantle religious based education. Is the SNP ready to do that in Scotland or are all parties still willing to use this as a political football to their advantage?
Remember Tony Bliar actively encouraged the establishment of "faith" based schools which opened the door big time to Muslim based schooling, which is all but unaudited and controlled. Decades of religious indoctrination via "faith" schools have left their divisive mark in Scotland but Tony, "I was educated in Scotland you know," carried on regardless of the evidence.
Tony slimed off and embraced Roman Catholicism after that.Interesting that one?
Religion and state have no place together.
If someone wishes to follow a faith, that is a personal decision and they should keep it so. An indication of their faith, and thus some of their cultural values would not be, for me, a hanging offence. A Sikh turban, a headscarf, a discrete crucifix, cross or Star of David is also acceptable. The Burka is not; it is a symbol of female repression, as is female circumcision and Sarkozy is right to call on it to be banned in France.
It should be banned in the UK too, but I am not holding my breath.
Would you appreciate your neighbours piling into your house each night and changing your TV channel to watch what they want.
Good comments gentlemen. I think France has banned the headscarf in their schools and hospitals already and, when listening to the clip on Radio 4 last night, one woman said "France has lost a many great Muslim teachers because of that and they've all gone to England."
I reiterate, I don't care what anyone wears but when it affects identity where certain people are treated differently to others, then it's wrong. Because of that I'd say ban it too then the problem would never arise.
Like Faux Cu I won't hold my breath.
Good to see you Conan, hope you're keeping your chin up :)
Banned it is a difficult one but it's brave of Sarkozy to tackle it head on.
As long as I could indentify them as my neighbours then I could deal with it Lorenzo. Am I on the right wave length?
Not sure Banning the wearing of Clothing people Identify with their religion or Nation is a good idea.
Didn't seem to work with the Tartan.
My natural inclination is to abhorthe idea of a government telling me what I can and can't wear (although, obviously, I accept that they are not telling ME personally).
As Banned said above, is Le Petit Nicholas's proposed ban, not every bit as illiberal as the insistance of the Taliban on its wearing?
And where will it stop? Will saggy jeans be next, or t-shirts with political references, and will Monsieur Sarkozy next be dictating the length of people's hair or its colouring.
I accept the security implications, of course, but some sun glasses, hats, and hoods pretty much have the same effect of hiding face or eyes in close contact.
It's not easy. But I certainly wouldn't want an ugly git like Sarkozy telling me what to wear.
Next thing the English version of Sarkozy, another ugly git, Gordon Brown will be wanting to ban the north british kilt, and my response to that would be to never leave the house wearing anything else.
Now there's an idea niko. Tartan burkas. Time we all learned clan tartans anyway.
Sarkozy's stance on TV last night was that it intimidated women and made them less equal than men in his view tris.
The French have banned the headscarf in public services already so they may well succeed with this proposal.
I'm on yet another set of meds subrosa, fingers crossed with this lot.
Tris, that is just the point, the Muslim "teachers" are more or less forcing women to wear traditional dress, if not the burka.
How many times have you seen young Asian men dressed in the height of fashion and their wives and sisters dressed in sari, trousers and headscarfs?
Fingers crossed indeed Conan.
I know very few Muslim women and all enjoy wearing western dress although, some years ago, one who had just married had pressure from her new husband to cover up. Fortunately she had a strong family herself and they supported her decision. I lost contact with her a few years later.
Strange that considering it is one religion that some Muslim countries have a stricter "dress" code than others.
I understand that in some parts of Scotland ladies cannot go to church without a hat on due to some obscure and ambiguous reference in the Bible.
subrosa,
PS. Stop sooking up to that Conan - never trust people who wear beards and then have the cheek to talk about what others are wearing. I'm banned from his blog again. grrrrr!!
In Indonesia, the world's biggest Moslem country, many girls go around in mini-skirts; and burkas are rare. It is the secretly gay fascist Moslem oligarchs and, their fascist Pentagon backers, who encourage the feudal forms of Islam. All organised religions are dangerous when they start brainwashing people and telling people they must wear funny uniforms. When we stop voting for the fascists, the problem will be solved.
I think it's in the land of the wee frees that hats must be worn Brownlie. Jings, I thought you would know that. :)
It used to be Catholic women covered their heads but it doesn't seem to matter anymore.
It's people with moustaches I never trust brownlie - men and women of course!
Well it's time you behaved yourself and stopped telling him his meds are rubbish. Isn't that right Conan?
Afternoon Nona. That's an interesting aspect to all this and I'm quite sure you're right, but will it ever happen? They are too many in number.
I accept that that's what Mr Sarkozy said SR. But, in my opinion it is wrong for governments to tell people what to wear, pretty much regardless of the reasons that they have. He may feel that certain women are forced into wearing this, but he really can't interfere with that, or soon he will be dictating how often they have sex, how many children they have, who does the washing, and what food they eat.
The next president may think that "mini-jupes" are degrading to women, or that it is disgusting to see the tops of men's underwear with low cut jeans. Where will it end?
Sarkozy needs to concentrate on the real problems that France is facing and leave household arrangements alone (in my humble opinion!!).
Hey Conan... Sorry to hear you're sick. I wish you a speedy recovery with all my heart.
I know what you are saying about the women being forced to wear the things by their men, but my point is that, when government starts telling households how to regulate their family life, where on earth does it end?
It's wrong for the woman to do the ironing, or cook the food all the time? The men must go to the supermarket at least once a month.... otherwise the woman is being exploited?
I accept it is a difficult problem, I just think the President would be better employed addressing other issues.
Brownlie... I saw a programme not long ago about Saudi Arabia, and in it Prince Sultan explained that many of the dress codes are not Koranic teaching, but local custom. According to him it is not obligatory to cover your face for religious reasons... just traditional.
It's like women wearing long sleeves and a head covering when they meet the Pope, I guess. Nothing in the Bible says they have to.
I could go on for ages about the reasons for female head covering,and men baring their head while praying.
But I then would have to mention:
Byzantine chariot racing factions.
The Empress Theodora.
The hairstyles of the Huns, Franks and Avars.
St Cyril and his followers(a kind of christian taleban)brutally murdering the female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria.
And thats just a start;¬)
Gentleman Conan, I salute you for stopping where you did!
Hope you are getting better.
At least Westminster is giving you a good Whitehall farce to watch these days.
I too am grateful you stopped when you did Conan. Having to google more than your list would have me pinned to this machine for hours.
Men who don't shave don't 'wear' beards any more than they 'wear' their feet. They just don't shave. Moustaches involve selective shaving and so are unforgiveable in men. I'm not too keen on them on women either but I'm old fashioned.
By the way, I never wear my feet. I take a taxi.
Oh Jim, how unforgiving you are to women of a certain age :) But I do understand your opinion of men.
My feet will never wear out. I tend to buy footwear which does that for me. Expensive stuff right enough but you've just proved it's worth it. :)
Subrosa,
Now you have inflamed my desire. Never a difficult thing to do. Women in expensive footwear. Ah. Tepid cup of tea for me to calm me down.
Jim, dare I suggest a warm glass of red would be more refreshing, otherwise I can recommend the Twinings Digestiv is rather interesting. Then again, for something stronger, Morrisons do a wonderful fennel and nettle - don't laugh, it has a better kick than an expresso, but do take your shoes off before you drink it!
Subrosa,
Thank you for the advice. I shall take my shoes off if you promise to keep yours on.
Jim I only wear footwear when absolutely necessary such as when it's cold or on terrain where my delicate skin would become upset.
To avoid such problems, like you I prefer motorised transport. Why wear out something when it's not necessary?
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