A National Conversation, Inverness 2008
Allan Massie writes an interesting article in today's Times entitled 'Without independence, SNP must be more modest.' His argument is based on one of the founder members, Christopher Murray Grieve, better known as the poet Hugh MacDiarmid's definition of his vision of Scottish nationalism.
He wrote to protest "against the idea that a scheme for developing the poultry industry in Ayrshire, or re-afforesting part of Sutherlandshire, or re-establishing a parliament in Edinburgh, or, in short, any scheme to do anything at all, political, economic, commercial or industrial - except to arouse a distinctive and dynamic spirit in Scotland ... has anything whatever to do with Scottish nationalism."
Mr Massie continues, "There have always been two ideas of Scottish nationalism and they have been incompatible. One saw it as a national movement, a transcending party able to draw support from across the left-right political spectrum. The other was more pragmatic, for it accepted the reality of parliamentary and electoral politics - a reality which requires the organisation of a party capable of winning elections at local and national level. The SNP eventually chose the second route with the results we see today."
His opinion is that the SNP seems more likely to be in for the long haul and must continue to pursue a course of gradualism, seeking to acquire more powers for the Scottish parliament, but powers that will for a long time stop far short of the dissolution of the UK. He advises the party to co-operate with other parties in the work of the Calman Commission, even though any such co-operation will further blur the difference between them and their opponents.
Doesn't Mr Massie know that the SNP were not invited to join the Calman Commission? In fact they were pointedly omitted from the guest list which was composed of only unionist parties.
All in all though a fair argument and based on fair evidence. Have a read yourself.
Posts
30 comments:
Scotland can't afford a "gradualist" approach. We can't wait for more of the same to bring change.To be constantly begging for "more sir" is humiliating and offensive. We will be drip fed powers - first from Westminster - then from Brussels. We will be tied up in a union where we have almost zero representation and have to rely on the whim of foreign masters for all our needs.
Scots need a leader who will inspire them to action. Is Alex Salmond that man? No - he would see us tethered to the EU with less voice and, consequently, less power than we have at present.
Crunch time is coming and it looks increasingly likely that the lead will have to come from the grass roots rather than the elected officials of the SNP.
Scots of all persuasions must now see that their future in the UK and the EU is one of diminishing liberties and loss of the ability to affect the conditions under which they live. I'm beginning to think that - across Europe - independence and liberty will be won on the streets rather than at the ballot box - kettling and baton charges not withstanding.
The history of the UK in the 20th century - and the beginning of the 21st - has been characterized by incompetent leadership in almost every sphere of life - political, industrial, commercial, educational - wherever we look we see failure. We can'[t rely on 'leaders" any more. We must trust in ourselves.
The enemy of idealism is the mundane and ordinary.You can wave the flag but i need me breakfast.
All part of the New World Order scunnert which is slipping into place a lot quicker than planned. Aren't they delighted too.
I see it as stalemate at present and that will continue for years. Doubt if David Cameron will move on anything because he needs the oil money. Although did you see that the oil investment has fallen badly in the past 3 months? Only natural I expect in this economic climate.
Too weary this morning to wave anything niko so might just go and have some breakfast myself.
It's an interesting piece from Massie and a welcome respite from the wailing of the banshee Ms Hujl (nee Cochrane)........
With the current electoral arithmatic I think the SNP will need to engage robustly with Calman (as Mike Russell is already doing) by always asserting that indepdnence is our chosen state and that antything is inferior but that if the choice was between the options then this is what we'd advise.
Supporting that position is the tricky bit.
Me, well as I've previously stated, I'd like to see independence tomorrow but I can also wait for it if need be. Better to get more powers than none at all. The SNP should via Calman and the National Conversation be pushing for maximum devolution at this stage and force the Liberals and Tory's hand on a referendum that includes a third question.
The Tories are already saying that they will reverse Brown's Lisbon Treaty ratification by holding a referendum on that.
The pressure on Annabale will be immense if that is the case.
An awful lot is going to hang on how radical Calman can be and what 2010 brings.
Both have the power to energise those who wouldn't normally support independence.
I can't see how the parliament can accept radically increased powers, especially borrowing powers, without a referendum.
My problem though is Calman Wardog. I don't think he'll be radical in the least. I think it'll be a few drips from the bowl at best.
Subrosa,
It seems as if we're having to tiptoe around until the rest of Scotland catches up, they are but so damn slowly!
I agree with Scunnert and I've long said that people broken with little left to live for after hoping that "Labour would see them alright" will eventually turn against that which has created them and destroy!
In a civilised society you'd hope it would be done politically, but I feel that the ballot is being manipulated by certain Westminster centric parties and if they are stooping to such distasteful levels then eventually the law will be taken into one's own hands and then stand up and be counted for Scotland's Independence.
The current state of play cannot continue and we must evolve and go forward - with distinguishable goals.
Morning, bon apetito - soon be lunch!
CD
Sub R
Ian McWhirter had a piece in The Herald with respect to Scottish Bloggers. Not a nice piece I may say.
This has been torn apart by Alan Massie at The Spectator.
This is what I posted or tried to, awaiting moderation, about the article.
I do not go any more to The Herald because the last time I did they did not allow comments so bog them.
Link to The Spectator piece
http://tinyurl.com/chg35g
You will need to find your own way to The Herald website as I will no longer go there.
McWhirter is one of the better journalists still allowed to write in the Scottish Press.
It is ironic that he talks about blogging as The Herald and Sunday Herald have effectively removed that option for us, the great unwashed.
First they moderated all posts, Then the removed the possibility of posting outside office hours so , no people in the USA, South America, Far East and Australasia and China could bog in real time. The moderation took so long the the swift riposte and sharp argument was redundant. Then the changed the moderation policy and made sure that anything smacking of a rant was filtered out. My moniker Faux Cul was deemed offensive and yet it is in current circulation in France with respect to a certain type of Politician; probably all of them at Westminster.
They allowed comment only a selected articles and then progressively whittled the number down.
Posts dropped to 5 or 6 every few days and then they shut it down altogether.
They created a desert and called it peace.
The rise on individual blogs reflects the paucity of opportunity to comment about articles in what used to be a very good newspaper.
Today sales of The Herald and The Scotsman (unbelievable Union biase) are below that of The Dundee Courier.
Two once great broadsheets on the way to the history books.
McWhirter actually was the only thing worth reading but after that faux defence of what is(?) the structured removal of free public web comment he has lost my respect.
Unfortunately some of Scotland will never catch up CD and I think we're aware of that. Until one of the unionist parties open their eyes we're kind of stuck. The tories won't do it because they want the oil money when they get to Westminster. Labour won't do it because without Scotland they wouldn't get power in Westminster. The libdems are just bluddy minded.
One hope is that labour lose plenty seats, enough to give the SNP a good majority. That would help but it won't be enough I don't think.
Quandary isn't it.
Aye I read Alan Massie this morning FC. I'll look and see if your comment has been passed.
Entirely agree with you about MacWhirter. I think he, along with the rest of the average hacks, are running scared as they see their jobs being overtaken by some excellent bloggers, most of whom do it for pleasure. Like you I was very surprised at his outburst.
Looks like Broon's tea is oot.
he seems to have lost The Sun who are gutting him wholesale and the SKY website are giving him a doing also.
The Time well, that makes all, including the NofW, again the Kirkcaldy snot nibbler.
Cameron is just a woose and couldn't punch himself of a wet paper bag.
Looks as though my comment is not being published in The Spectator.
Maybe I am one of the Vermin, according to Douglas Fraser.
My old sparring partner "Scunnert" you are much too angry, much too dogmatic., I dont want to wait either, but Scotland can afford to wait if necessary. Our ancertors have waited in much less favorable circumstances. It will never be "too late!"
Where we are right now has lots of pitfalls, - I'm as aware as anyone of the power of the system, the establishment. But I'm near 50 now, can remember the 70s under dull labour, the 80s and most of the 90s under Thatcher and forsyth. The best part of this decade under Blair and Jacko and co. This is now a relative golden age. Our own Parliament, our own GOVERNMENT, and one, despite more than a few errors, is still calling the strategic shots.
My view? We need to think different, out the box. Not fully dump old left-right or fundy- graduastist debate, but move beyond this. Think geo-politically.
What does obama mean?. What dos a G20, not a G8 mean? What would a free Palestine mean? What does the peace process and the enxorable drift towards Irish unity mean? What does the near certain collapse of the British Labour party withing less than two years mean? - it literally will go bankrupt, politically already is. What does the net, blogs, our own free tv channels, things that aint even be invented yet - but aint that far off - mean?
They mean fantastic new opportunities ,possibilties that with respect to the McDeremid, Mclean, Cunninghame Graham, Keir Hardie, John Wheatley , Wendy Wood, Donald Stewart and all the rest of our heroes could simply never have imagined.
Nor again, with respect, can even Allan Massie - but hes getting there. And Ian McWhirter ( who i generally have a lot of time for) is this week just picking up easy money, writing what gazzumed newpaper editors want to hear, and from as credible a source as MCwhiirter. Ian - go homehard, think again.
But we all need ot think again and think hard, think different
Calmun Comssision? - dont touch it with a barge pole, nats. A london controlled unionist trap, Even good labour folks know that. Brown ( if hes still there!) will approve it's final report in Downing street, all proofed by London civil servants, Damien McBride clones etc, before anyone in Scotland labour, lib dem, tory, let alone the SNP get near it.
And rember boycoting the Constitutional Convention in 1988 Convention did not work out too bad - either in terms of outcome or positioning. Learn from that, dont be seduced by the however well intentioned "commentators" saying the SNP must engage.
Yes the SNP needs to engage more, but with the people of scotland, non SNP nationalist minded allies, prgressive groups looking for a lead having been so let down by NUlab. Get out SNP and engage with the world, the new generations, bloggers, twitterers, free thinkers, creavtive people. The folk that put Obama where he is, are here and now are changing america and the world for the better, as we wonder if we should submit a paper to a bunch of hand picked dull Unionist suits
Ignore the suits, trancend them. Link up with new forces for whom the words "independence" and "freedom" are in their DNA, Deference, control freakery, caucus politics - even SNP caucus politics - are an anethma. Youll meaet 100,000 of them in Balado, T in the Park this July. The real power , flower of scotland
Sorry for being so long, but this is strongly how I feel, But to show I aint for binning history, tradionion, legacy, I'll end with this quote from the late and great Mick McGahey:
"The most painful of things in life, is the birth of a new idea!"
Ouch Ian Mc, Alan Massie and a whole load of folks. A new freedom train has already left the station, and is coming our way.
Jess words can't describe the disregard I have for dear jenny. They employ columnists such as this then
Moan about falling circulations and blogs!
My enduring memory of Mr Massie (aside from his undisputed status as a fifth-rate novelist) is a column of his in Scotland on Sunday a few years ago in which he explicitly advocated the mobilisation of what he called 'the Rangers vote' to stop the SNP. I'm studying criminal pathologies at the moment, and I have discovered that the correct term for cases like the unfortunate Mr Massie is 'Wee Shite'. You could of course embellish this, as 'Wee Orange Shite' if you were so minded.
On broader and more important matters, I second scunnert - nationalists should sup wi a lang spoon where the EU is concerned. And I'm very European (maybe that should be with a small 'e'), speaking three European languages - one of them intelligibly.
Faux Cu: Aha! So it's actually 'faux cul'. I wasted hours looking for a verb that had 'cu' as its past participle. I didn't see the McWhirter piece. I won't be looking for it. I think he's spot-on about the economy, though, and maybe the only journalist who is.
I posted before I saw the comment from Alan: I'd like to hear Alan's views on the EU and Scottish membership thereof (or not).
wv: relab (please god, no)
Aye heard about the Sun somewhere FC and had a look. What a slating for oor PM and about time too.
Cameron's spineless and so are the tories but that doesn't mean he'll be good for Scotland. I should think it'll be much of the same but with courtesy.
AWC, I don't think scunnert is too angry or dogmatic. Both of us are of an age where we've actually lived the abuse and domination of our country. We're the generation who have fought long and hard for the SNP to be even recognised as a political party instead of just a movement.
I'm a generation older than you AWC and I remember the 50s and the struggle. My neighbours in those days worked so so hard for the SNP.
The rest of your comment I would more or less agree with particularly your point about thinking out of the box. We're behaving like UK polticians at the moment and we're not. Of course the unionist politicians are scared but what the hell, it's time they were pulled out of their cushy little boxes and earned their pay.
Thanks for your comment AWC, it certainly has made me think and it has a lot going for it. I hope others have a similar opinion.
HP, we know who puts the butter on Jenny's toast don't we? Enough said.
Vronsky, you know I'd forgotten about that. I think I'd embellish your term for Mr Massie after having read your comment.
Like scunnert and yourself I'm very wary of the EU influence. Since I left the enjoyable years of working there things have changed radically. Even my German friends aren't at all happy with the way things are going and they're not particularly political. They would prefer that, now their country has recovered from the joining of east and west, that they paddled their own canoe. Unfortunately they realise their leaders want to be 'top dogs' and, like us, they have little choice of political parties insofar as policies.
PS Just for your information I speak one European language and another two I physically manage enough to be understood. By physically I mean with body language, mime and lots of laughter.
Vronsky I do hope Alan returns to answer you.
It's not often I pray but your word ver is too awful to contemplate.
I just looked FC and couldn't see it either. Only once have I commented on that blog and it wasn't published. My thoughts immediately jumped to ' not acceptable because she's for independence'. Am I paranoid? You bet I am and the older I get the more paranoid I become.
Vronsky and others. The EU, I am genuinely reluctant to pronounce on. I like the basic idea, but can se the centralist and graft ridden reality that makes Holyrood's discredited accomodation allowance look like a woolies pick and mix.
But in terms of strategies for independence, I can see a lot of intellectual and real world political sense in the SNPs indpendence in Europe policy. The concept - a bigger, and I hope looser union, in which scotland can thrive as one of many, rather that one of three and a half dominated by a huge elephant, is I
I think conceptually a sound one, particularly in this globalised age.
The problem is of course what the EU has become and is going
But i think the trick is to get independence in Europe and then push on - to radically reform the EU in alliance with people everywhere who think like you - loads of folks - or alternatvely to somewher down the line leave the EU.
But remember, no one has ever left the EU, and nobody has ( and good on the Irish) ever really suceesfully, or certainly cleanly, left the UK. So pulling off both simultaneously I guess is just mission impossible, genuinley impossible, I reckon. Scots would ever vote for it and if they did the dilsocation and flight of capital,peopler etc etc would be so hoffific the indepenced project would prbably just collapse end up close to anarchy, secessionists everywhere.....
So i'd make a choice - break the UK union - leave the other one for later, indeed realistically , given Scotland'srelatve size for an altoghter bigger europe wide movement
I know there is Norway, Switzerland etc - but they have long been independent and never in the EU. So i dont think really count in terms of politcal srategy from where we are. Now, if Scotland like Norway had won its independence in the eraly 20th century ....
Ive said a lot, and i supposse answered you. But I am not pro EU, just pragmatic - I know it is one big corporate corpporation, made palitable by the attractive big idea that underpins it. But if in my ligfetime, indeed my kids', we see an independent scotland ill die happy. My grand kids can set up the peoples federation of the world - with a black Scots woman called Janine Connelly as its first President.
it's coming yet for a that!
An Excellent call to engage from Alan Samrt
AYE WE CAN!
Thanks AWC for your post. Do hope it's of interest to the seekers of information. GV will be interested I know.
Excellent article from Bob Holman in today's Herald:
http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/otherfeatures/display.var.2501719.0.Bob_Holman_on_local_democracy.php
He ends with this:
As for the Scottish Labour Party, it must cease to be the puppet of Gordon Brown and develop Labour policies in accord with its voters. Bowing the knee to Westminster is no longer democratic.
Essentially he is saying that he and others have to choose between supporting the party (Labour) or the policies e.g. anti nuclear as espoused by the SNP.
As for Independence, what most of us in the 'anorak' world of politics forget is the importance of the gradual change in ATTITUDE of the people of Scotland.
Since Holyrood there has been a growing confidence and a new hope in the Scots. This has accelerated since 2007.
In the past the SNP would have been crushed long ago by the mountain of negative sludge spewing out of the English controlled 'Scottish' media.
That's no longer happening. Scots today believe what they see in real life rather than what they read or see on TV.
Attitudes determine our every move. They shape our thinking. The attitude towards Independence has shifted monumentally. Most Scots have always wanted it but never believed it was possible.
An attitude of 'Cannae be dun' is changing to 'Whie no?'.
Once the facts come out during the Referendum Campaign the final support walls of the old Cannae be Dun attitude will crumble paving the way for a massive YES vote in November 2010.
Knowledge is power, we have that knowledge, we have a brilliant communicator backed by a very strong team and we have an army of on line communicators feeding information to the troops on the ground, e.g. Traquir complete with essential back up tinyurl's.
Labour is in meltdown, we are strong, let's get on and finish the job.
Many thanks for the link Brian. Excellent article indeed. I've been trying to push traquir into blogging because he has a superb archive but he usually just laughs at the suggestion. Perhaps you could try too?
Brian what interesting work you do. Many years ago I worked with children who had been rejected by mainstream education, or more accurately in my opinion by most teachers and dyslexia was still not recognised as a problem but an excuse.
I've been racking my brain to remember the name of the chap at Stirling University who developed a programme which identified dyslexia and sorry can't recall it (back in the 80s this was).
It really pleases me that things have come on leaps and bounds because so many of these children had so much potential. Some, by the time they reached me, had such low self esteem it was distressing.
I have a vague memory of the guy from Stirling subrosa but can't name him either.
As lack of confidence has played a major role in Scotland's continued membership of the UK union I have always been keen to restore low confidence where ever possible.
I'm pleased to say the Edinburgh Techniques build confidence as well as aid learning.
Brian I shall certainly mention you to those who were interested in helping these youngsters but unfortunately most of the people I know are now retired. They're sure to have contact with their replacement group though but many will possibly know of you already.
Post a Comment