Thursday, 5 March 2009

IS SCOTLAND RACIST?

Wrinkled Weasel has a post on his blog entitled 'Scottish Racism'. I found most of it sad and a little of it offensive, in particular the accusation that the whole of Scotland is racist. In this context I find the word racist is used more for emotive purposes than to discuss any underlying tensions between the English and the Scots.  He makes a reference to the young woman Lucy Newman who was attacked recently in Aberdeen and it was reported the reason was because she was English.  I do not condone any form of violence and I was disgusted to think that a stranger would attack another for any reason, but, when the picture widened and Lucy seemingly had lived in Scotland since she was 4 (she was 17 at the time of the assault), how could she have a strong English accent?  Surely if she'd been educated in a Scottish school with Scots dialects all around she couldn't have held onto an strong English accent.  Also there must have been some dialogue between the aggressor and herself but no detail was given.  It can be easy, in any situation, to use the 'racist' card.  No matter, the abuse of the young woman was Scotland's shame regardless of its motive. 

'I had a low level dispute with someone in Port Seton, which is less than seven miles from where I have lived for the past six years. I was sitting down to enjoy my fish supper, along with other people, on the quayside, when the woman and her daughter on the next seat began feeding the seagulls. They starting swooping and it looked as though I was going to lose my lunch or get it pooped on. So I said, “Do you mind not doing that?” and explained why. Now, you could argue that she should have ignored me, or just told me to feck off. But no, she said, and I quote, “We live here”.'

'The most regular, and mild, and yet most irritating is “Are you on holiday?” Sounds mild enough, but ask that of a black person or a third generation Pakistani and you are on very thin ice.'

Can the above two statements be classed as racist?  I think not. The scenarios could happen anywhere in the UK and beyond. The latter one is rather amusing.; perhaps he's not asked the same question when in England because nobody is interested.  Scots can be nosy but their nosiness is generally not a negative action, it is more of a genuine interest in my opinion.

Many of us now find we are reluctant to open our mouths in public. I don’t mean among the educated classes, I mean in public, among the hoi-polloi and the shopkeepers and low level council officials.

Now this statement is far more concerning as it implies the 'educated' are in some way superior and therefore have no negative thoughts about English people living here and that is nonsense. Not only does it insult our population it is this attitude which creates tensions which, in his view, only the 'great unwashed' harbour.  He also exposes the fact that the English perspective of class is alive and well.  Let me relate a couple of incidents which happened to me during my many years in England (aside from the very regular taunts of being called Jock, being asked why I didn't wear a kilt and the oh so constant 'Auk aye the noo' nonsense).

When attending an event in Sandhurst some years ago, I happened to overhear a very senior officer discussing a young trainee with his colleagues.  I knew this young man was a Scot and the conversation was along the lines of,  "I told him he'd make an excellent officer but he'll never be a ***** gentleman with an accent like that".  As I found this astonishing from such a high ranking military person, who I actually liked, I moved into the group to show my presence. His attempt to cover his embarrassment was amusing as well as pathetic and he wittered on about 'just a joke' etc.  I decided to keep silent.  That was, in my opinion, more humiliating for him than any words I could utter.

The second incident was at a drinks and winks 'do' after a board meeting of a large voluntary organisation.  The chair was a peer of the realm and also a local landowner, a true English gentleman by all accounts.  During the soiree he approached me and said, "I didn't realise they produced people of such intelligence in that primitive land of yours".  How I remember these words and the feelings they produced. His lordship obviously thought he was complimenting me but I thought otherwise.  I resigned within days, but to my shame I did not give the true reason; something I've regretted since.

None of my experiences would I class as racism, just ignorance.  I do realise many Scots have an inferiority complex and it has been borne from years of domination by the larger country of England.  To accuse Scotland of being 'racist' without admitting anti-Scottish tensions exist in England is inequitable.

Accents convey a culture.  Some may lose their accents because they leave a country when young but most seem to be fiercely proud of their roots, such as American Italians and Canadian Scots.  The Luxemburgers, Dutch and Belgiums feel squashed by the Germans and French and make derisory comments about each other.  Tensions exist but I certainly wouldn't call the countries of Luxemburg, the Netherlands or Belguim racist. Cultures differ and human nature demands we preserve ourselves in order to survive.

Perhaps I'm fortunate living where I do as there is very little evidence of anti-English tension. It is well documented that the west of Scotland suffers more, particularly in certain areas of sport.  To say that the government holds the answer is too simple, the answer lies in understanding each other's attitudes - a far more complex exercise and one, if Wrinkled Weasel is to be believed, which can only be understood by the 'educated'.

29 comments:

McGonagall said...

Aye Subrosa - I read that post. Did you read the comment from strapworld?
Here it is:

"strapworld said...
Living in Wales, I find that they use their dialect as the 'barrier, they will always allow welsh to jump queue's with the usual 'Oh I am sorry' if you point out that, actually,one has been waiting just half an hour to buy the paper!

It is the pandering of the welsh dialect, teaching it in schools, all signs in two languages,when one gets official papers you get it twice one in English and another in Welsh! The cost must be astronomical and is another example of the minority controllong the majority. BUT, devolution has created this. In the three devolved countries it has created hopes and desires that will end up in total disaster.

The English will have to let them go their separate ways. Let them experience life without the safety net of the English tax payer. I believe that will be the only way.

Just think. If we had allowed that earlier, we would not have a Scottish Mafia controlling us now!!

Wrinkled Weasle come on home!"

Proves a point I think.

As far as Lucy Newman's accent goes - yes she could have retained her accent. I once got talking with a young man - early twenties - in Edinburgh with a heavy English accent. When I asked him where he was from he said Aberdeen. When I questioned him further he admitted being born in England but having moved to Aberdeen when he was eleven.

Now you may find this hard to believe, but some years ago I came across an anthropology site that had a clickable map of the UK where you could sample typical accents from the various cities and regions. The Aberdonian accent on offer would not have been out of place in the South East of England.

This suggests to me that there are long standing English colonies in our North East where the culture and language are imported.

Is it racist to make these observations?

I admit to asking a couple of people with English accents where they were from. Now dialects and accents are an interest of mine, and my enquiries were wholly to satisfy this particular interest and curiosity.

The reaction of these English fellows was hostile in the extreme. I got the impression that they thought I was questioning their right to be in Scotland - which I wasn't.

But let me come clean. There are aspects of the English character ( am I stereotyping?) that I find objectionable. It's an officiousness and drive to organize that makes me want to slap them.

You'll find them the length and breadth of the nation. They will organize everything if you let them. They will leave no person, place, or activity unorganized if you don't actively intervene. They seem especially to like to organize historic sites, entertainment events, and all kinds of culture and media.

And the odd thing is organization translates into control - but that's just the officiousness asserting itself.

On the whole, they're gentle and harmless folks, filled with energy and enthusiasm for all things. We all have one who's married into the family I'm sure

JuanKerr.com said...

If he had balance he would find anytime Scotlands mentioned on guidos blog th nation gets slated so are all English people insular and rascist?

subrosa said...

Thanks for your post scunnert. I wasn't aware Aberdeen accents could sound like an English accent. This lassie came here at 4 scunnert, the lad you speak about was 11 - quite a difference in age where the influence of your peers and surroundings impress.

Indeed I do not think it's racist to make these observations and not is it racist to record them. Of course others will disagree.

I agree with your comment that some English have this desperate need to organise and control, it happens in my town. In fact there nearly as many 'incomer' English councillors on my local council than others. I admit I'm an 'incomer' here too though :)

It's the arrogant attitude which annoys me most, the unspoken 'I can do this better than any of you' attitude and they bring that with them. It's perhaps more noticeable in Scotland because it's not a common trait amongst Scots.

For my sins Mr S is a very very English man, the private education, the wealthy family etc. and a very quiet man. When he read WW's post he was slightly amused but said he had a point. When questioned further he said he had taunts from his friends but had come to realise it was their way showing camaraderie. Also he understood why some English people can upset the Scots because they can cause him embarrassment.

He's also read my post (a difficult subject but one which cannot be ignored), and agrees that here our English friends are caring, sharing and kind. They have made great efforts to 'fit in' and enjoy the 'nosiness' of the average Scot - most have adopted the characteristic themselves.

The class comment from WW was the one which concerned me. I've been back here for some years and in my childhood, class was never an issue. It was only when I moved to England as a teenager I was aware that class mattered. I still feel the Scots have fewer prejudices towards anyone who is 'better' or 'worse' than themselves regardless of nationality.

JuanKerr.com said...

Scunnert i remember some years a go and English person who moved to just outside Aberdeen exclaiming "I was reticent to come to live in Scotland but found that in the village I live all the people speak English and are from England. I feel right at home and not in any way fearful of my kids speaking Scotch!"

subrosa said...

I tried to make that point Juan but he obviously thinks it's only the Scots who are 'racist'. The reason I did this post was to put my viewpoint forward and to say I found it very unfortunate he wasn't prepared to accept underlying tensions are in every culture.

subrosa said...

As long as he's happy here that's what matters Juan. I don't like to think that someone feels so unhappy they have to accuse a whole country of being racist and accuse respective political parties of not doing anything about it.

McGonagall said...

"I admit I'm an 'incomer' here too though."

Subrosa - one can't be an incomer into one's own land. That's a non sequitur invented by real incomers to stir the pot and create confusion. No place in Scotland is foreign to me - nor should it be to you.

McGonagall said...

"I feel right at home and not in any way fearful of my kids speaking Scotch!"

Juan, I took a train from Edinburgh to Inverness some years ago - going to an SNP Annual Conference. I was the only Scot in my carriage yet everyone else was going home.

subrosa said...

I said that tongue in cheek scunnert as I live in a small rural town and am a born and bred city woman.

No place is Scotland is foreign to me and neither are some places in Europe. I suppose I'm just one of these wandering Scots who made the best of everything. Pleased my wandering days are over though and I've been lucky enough to arrive here.

brownlie said...

subrosa,

I was interested in your comment that the experiences were borne out of ignorance and not racism. I feel that all racism, bigotry or prejudice is borne out of ignorance. These prejudices can be fostered by family and friends. If you were a child in a family with, say, a prejudice against Catholics then the chances are that you will carry this prejudice into adult-hood. Needless to say, the same would be true about the cause of prejudice to the English, gays or black people.

It can only be that as people become more educated and gain more knowledge of, and familiarity with, the objects of the prejudice that an in-grained prejudice can be eliminated.

As far as accents are concerned, I left the Hebrides when I was eleven and I like to think that I've retained my accent although I'm quite sure I would not have retained it if I had left at the age of four.

Years ago, my wife and I were in a shop in a Hebridean village and my wife asked the shop-keeper if he had any ladie's magazines. He replied "Yes, they're in the back-room" and turned to his assistant and said, in Gaelic "She's from Glasgow, you'd better go and follow her in case she steals anything". When I challenged him on it he maintained that they had no stealing, etc in the village until mainlanders settled there.

There's a terrible sadness in his view that crime was imported into the village and that this fact prejudiced him against all mainlanders.

By the same token, I believe that our up-bringing, education and intelligence determines whether we have an inferiority complex or, indeed, a superiority complex and is nothing to do with our race or colour.

Education and understanding is, I feel, the only way to eradicate bigotry, racism and prejudice.

an ex-apprentice said...

From Scotland on Sunday 17/2/09

ANTI-ENGLISH bigotry in Scotland is on a par with sectarianism and should not be tolerated as part of a "healthy society," according to the leader of the Kirk.

"It is time to reflect on attitudes: the things we accept, perhaps unthinkingly, that we use to strengthen our sense of identity; the caricatures that are underpinned by humour in thinly disguised prejudice. There is certainly a lot of anecdotal evidence that there is anti-Englishness abroad in Scotland today.

"The principle behind sectarianism is the same one that feeds anti-English feeling. It is the principle which seeks to narrow our identity to only one feature, like religion, race or nationality, and which makes that one feature the totality of how we see one another."

The Moderator was surprised by the attitudes of some people she encountered during her visit to London.

She said: "There are anti-Scottish sentiments being expressed in England. I think the political climate is making it more likely. What compounded the thing for me was in London people were asking me, 'What is Scotland up to?' There was a sense of bewilderment about what was happening in Scotland."

Kesting revealed she experienced anti-English sentiment during her childhood in Stornoway on the Isle of Lewis. She said: "I grew up in the north-west, in a part of Scotland where English people tended to settle and there was an antipathy towards them. They weren't altogether welcomed."

The Moderator's views were backed by anti-sectarianism campaigner and Glasgow minister, Reverend Elisabeth Spence.

The Sense Over Sectarianism project member said: "If you say something which is sectarian, people will spot it and challenge it because of the high-profile campaigns which have raised awareness that it will no longer be tolerated.

"People still laugh off anti-English remarks as just a bit of fun, but they are nothing of the sort. They are racist and offensive."

subrosa said...

Brownlie what a thoughtful post, thanks. Yes I would rather explain it in terms of prejudice and ignorance rather than this 'in' word racism which I associate with extreme violence and I still would not label my own experiences as racist, although I know many would.

The world will never be a perfect place because humans will always have ingrained prejudices and to improve these situations takes effort from all sides not just one.

Of course Wrinkled Weasel says the 'educated' don't need to worry because they don't hold any prejudices, it's only the hoi polloi such as low grade council workers etc. Shame on him.

It is difficult to deal with. My father was the least bigoted person I knew but he continued to call his best friend a left-footer and the best friend called him a pressy - both highly educated men but for some reason they were proud to come from the two main religions and be friends. Possibly it was quite unusual to have close friends from another religion. Sounds strange telling that story and saying my father was the least bigoted person I knew but do remember I was a child

Your story about your visit 'home' doesn't surprise me. I remember when I worked there for a few months back in the early 70s, it was difficult for a while as I was a 'mainlander' and too young, in their opinion, to run any hotel. I understand Lewis wasn't quite as bad as the other islands because they'd learned a great deal with the need to build a relationship with the RAF based there, but still they were suspicious. I can understand, because many had watched their children or other family 'go off' to the mainland and never return.

subrosa said...

Thanks ex-apprentice, I did read that when it was first published. Is that your opinion?

I'm happy to accept there are anti-English tensions in Scotland but I'm not prepared to accept being told Scotland in totally racist without pointing out there is similar anti-Scottish tensions in England.

This minister is perhaps a great deal younger than me and it's not a great to do with the political scene here, the English have been telling Scottish, Irish and Welsh jokes for many years. Is that racist?

Conan the Librarian™ said...

subrosa, the same person (I wonder why he is an ex-apprentice?)is on WW's blog, insulting scunnert, myself and you, saying that we are in "denial" and are gratuitously insulting people.

Should tell WW to get google-ad on his blog as this could be a long comments box ;-)

wv cienyc, heh!

subrosa said...

Ah Conan I suppose he feels threatened in some way. Are we threatening or are we being honest?

He deleted two of my posts Conan so I shan't comment on there again.

Also he's taken himself off my follower list - how juvenile but not surprising.

McGonagall said...

Just revisited WW's blog. Here is the beginning part of one of ex-apprentice's comments:

"So there you have it, WW, straight from the horses mouth. From Colon, Scumbag and Subrosy themselves, no less."

I assume he is referring to me as "Scumbag".

Noticed also that WW had removed your posts Subrosa despite his denials. Is this the behaviour we can expect of the English? Gratuitous insults and lies? Is England a nation of scoundrels who send their carpet baggers north to lie to and insult the natives.

Why would any self-respecting nation tolerate colonies of these despicable people in their midst? This is a boil on our nation's arse that needs lancing:0)

subrosa said...

Have you also noticed Scunnert that he altered the post the following day without making mention on his comments?

The bit about being asked was he on holiday also said something like "..I'm never asked this when I visit England".

Pathetic and I'm so thankful that my English friends here aren't of his 'class' obviously.

I think that dreadful 'scumbag' reference does mean you scunnert. It only shows the level of ignorance of some English is lower than I thought.

McGonagall said...

This is almost like being back posting on the Herald :0)

JuanKerr.com said...

Scunnert i dont hate the English I just hate the superior way some treat Scotland. Like an abussive husband. Constantly knocking, constantly demeaning, it's like an insecurity. I have though spoken to some that would happily recapture their own, old sense of identity. Remember this union was born of of skulduggery, with the Aliens acts, Darrien, 2 bad harvests, and then they pounced.

The English people themselves mostly probably couldnt care less. I think a lot would say good luck and all the best, anything we can do just ask. We do now share a lot of cross heritage. They (the few)see Scotlands will for self determination as a spurned advance. Some ofthe folk , just like unionists up here, just don't get it that smaller is better. The intelligent and reasonable can see it fairly plainly in England. Only the odd caveman Labour/tory/BNP see it as a threat.

McGonagall said...

I agree Juan. I have English folks in the family, have English friends, I even speak their hellish language. It's a bit rich though for WW and didnae finish mah apprenticeship to cry racism while insulting their host nation and erudite Scottish posters. But ye'll find bampots everywhere.

BTW - I'm calling for jokes about thon English Bastards on my blog. Please feel free to contribute.

subrosa said...

Juan, I recognise that as arrogance and that is something the Scots don't have compared with the English. Perhaps it's their inability to recognise the Empire is not longer - us Scots knew that a long time ago.

subrosa said...

Scunnert, no English jokes spring to mind. Is it because I feel I'd be called racist as WW says we are? I don't really know but I have a plethora of Irish, Welsh and Scottish jokes which were told during my years in England.

I shall attempt to find one to put on your blog but don't wait up :)

an ex-apprentice said...

Dear Mrs Subrosy,

"I think that dreadful 'scumbag' reference does mean you scunnert. It only shows the level of ignorance of some English is lower than I thought."

As the Somali warlord said, when beheading his 22nd nun, if you people can’t take a joke, you shouldn’t have come.

You asked whether the SoS article represented my opinion.

No. Or at least it was not my opinion. Now I’m not so sure.

I said in my first comment on WW's post that I was shocked by his remarks and that the attitudes he reported were ones I had never personally encountered despite spending a lot of time in Scotland over many years.

The difference of course is that he has lived there, I haven't.

I had hoped to gain some insight into why these attitudes existed today. Fat chance.

If you could climb down from your high horse of comical indignation and faux outrage and read the comments, both here and on the original thread, with anything resembling an open mind, you might see that ample evidence HAS been provided that WW is not making it up.

If all Scots were the thin-skinned, chippy, grudge-filled, utterly humourless seekers of victimhood you and your mutual admiration society have shown yourselves to be, then Scotland would be a nation to be pitied.

I exclude, by the way, Mr Brownlie from this criticism.

For the sake of my own love of Scotland I hope to God you are not representative.

Hamish said...

Subrosa:

"It's the arrogant attitude which annoys me most".

"For my sins Mr S is a very very English man"

"When questioned further ..."

Listen to yourself.

subrosa said...

Hamish, you have no idea whosoever Mr S is and that post was personally for another commenter. It was not rude in any way.

Yes the arrogance of some English people stands out when they come here. A perfect example of it is when WW complained because someone asked him if he's on holiday. I, as a Scot, think that's friendly, he thinks it's irritating and racist.

Hey ho c'est la vie.

subrosa said...

'if all Scots were the thin-skinned, chippy, grudge-filled, utterly humourless seekers of victimhood'

This piece of your post is offensive. All I did was ask if the article you posted was your opinion.

I have never accused WW of making anything up but I do accuse him of lying. If he had published my first two posts (of course he read them but obviously didn't agree with them), you will find I was more in sympathy because he's unhappy with living here in some ways. Actually, he appears to only be happy with 'educated' Scots and not the hoi polloi.

Wouldn't you feel insulted if a Scot in England told you that, because they judged you as uneducated, you must be racist? A very poor argument indeed from him.

We are not a humourless, thin-lipped lot here but humour wears a bit thin when it's always English people complaining about the Scots and debate is reduced to personal insult.

I hope any future visits you have to Scotland are as enjoyable as your previous ones.

My own visits to England are not marred by my experiences even though one of my friend's husbands continues, after 40 years to greet me with 'Auk aye the noo' and still thinks he's funny.

Conan the Librarian™ said...

subrosa, strange how his opinion of brownlie has changed.

http://marasunamusings.blogspot.com/2009/02/abu-qatada-awarded-2500-compensation.html#comments

subrosa said...

There's something about I couldnae finish ma apprenticeship which isn't ringing the right bells Conan, don't you think?

Maybe I'm wrong and he just likes to be on the popular side of debate but ...

subrosa said...

Ex apprentice

You wrote this on WW's blog:

'Not one of the subrosy mutual appreciation society has admitted to the existence of any problem, far less attempted to answer the question I posed as to why such attitudes exist, which was the main reason I joined this thread.

I repeat what I said to subrosy; for the sake of my own love of Scotland, I pray to God you lot are not in any way representative.'

That is untrue. I have recognised there is a problem in some areas of Scotland in this very post but I don't see problems where I live.

What does concern me is the way WW classes everyone bar his definition of the 'educated' as being racist. That's insulting and that's what I was defending.

Also he lied, my first posts were removed because they were seen my others who are quite happy to back me. I really can't be bothered discussing it further with petty minded individuals who think, if someone asks them if they're on holiday, that it is a racist question.

Life's too short and there are many lovely people out there who aren't upset by the average Scottish friendliness.

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