Sunday, 8 February 2009


Scotland on Sunday has published an article, by David Cameron, in which he states he will insist on far closer relations between the two administrations than has occurred under Labour if he is elected Prime Minister at the next election.  It's rather pleasing to know that he personally will talk to the FM isn't it.  Bit of an improvement with the attitude of the present PM.

This week in Parliament, the tories gave their somewhat half-hearted support to the libdem's proposal for Scottish Parliament to have borrowing powers, by abstaining along with labour.  The proposal was carried.  

In certain parts of Scotland in the last decade, tory voters have begun to support the SNP, mainly because they believe in independence or certainly more fiscal control. Ms Goldie is playing a good game at present and she may be listening to the some of the wishes of the tory membership.
Then Mr Cameron blows it. "If elected, I will do everything in my power to ensure that the SNP will not be able to split up the UK."  Where have we heard this before?  Oh Dave, you were doing reasonably well and now you sound like a bully with the "everything in my power..." stance.   A more appropriate comment may have been that he would work with the Scottish government and support an independence referendum.  A poll out today shows opinion for independence and the status quo is running about 50/50. Polls are of little interest to me but I do know confidence is growing day by day in Scotland.

Why are Westminster MPs so determined to hold onto Scotland?  Many in England would be quite happy if Scotland became independent because they consider us a drain on their resources.  So why is it that the two main UK political parties and the libdems are so desperate for Scotland to be part of this broken union? The only reasons I can think of are financial.  Our electricity is sold far cheaper south of the border than here and we supply heavily populated areas of England. Is that why? Doubtful if that is the only reason.  


Wrinkled Weasel said...

A good post Rosa.

I am an Englishman living in Scotland. I am also a nationalist and voted SNP last time.

It amazes me how people down South just don't get it. It's probably because Scottish affairs just don't get reported there and all they see is the First Minister.

I am afraid David Cameron says what he thinks people want him to say. He is spineless.

Anonymous said...

"Then Mr Cameron blows it. "If elected, I will do everything in my power to ensure that the SNP will not be able to split up the UK."

Well unless he is going to send Tanks into Scotland,then even he knows there is little he can do to stop independence if/when we vote for it.

I still bet he will have a better ralationship with the SNP than the likes of Brown.

Nikostratos said...

I'm afraid you nats(with conservative leanings) are going to find Dave an implacable foe of Independence. Alongside the labour party the Scottish conservatives the lib dems and now you have made enemies of the greens them as well.

brownlie said...

If Cameron and his cronies get in at least the position regarding further powers or independence will be more clear than the useless mixture of powers available to the Scottish Government at present.

Does he really mean EVERYTHING in his power because as UK Prime Minister he will have a lot of power?

I think this remark will be seized on by people such as the poster on the Scotsman site who said he would put troops on the streets.

It is hard to imagine that people would believe anything so ludicrous but then, again, who would believe that a British Prime Minister would deceive the British people with his dodgy dossier?

Anonymous said...

brownlie well said.

The way i see it is this. If DC wins the next UK election (i hope) and if he starts to pis# the Scots off, then he knows it will play into the SNP hands. We have never had a SNP Gov and a Con Gov before, cant wait to see what happens.

Not seen the poster you are talking about brownlie but i guess its the same one who posts as kimba, English flag etc, its The Master, bit of a retard.

subrosa said...

Aye WW, Dave seems a bit weak on all things Scottish. Then why not? He can manage without the Scottish vote.

subrosa said...

Very true Spook.

Nats with conservative leanings niko? Well I have to admit possibly better than having new labour leanings although is there much difference? All unionists want to hang onto Scotland niko. Why?

subrosa said...

Brownlie, he did say 'everything'. Expect more of the dirty tricks. Nothing surprises me anymore. There is no common decency left in politics but was there ever?

subrosa said...

Spook I give up on the Scotsman forums. So many labour agitators or perhaps one labour agitator changing names. Makes for boring reading.

Conan the Librarian™ said...

Same here subrosa.

I prefer saying what I want, about who I want, in language I want to speak.

Ovr type, rather.

wv is "impitin"

brownlie said...


How can you criticise the Scotsman site when some-one yesterday described you as the "delightful subrosa" and this time it wasn't me??

brownlie said...


"bit of a retard" or a bit of a realist. Nikos, if the worst comes to the worst will you help us man the barricades? We could do with a body-builder of your stature!

wv: pianest - music to my ears.

Nikostratos said...

man the barricades?

But who outside of the Nationalist Clan isn't considered the 'ENEMY'.

I do wonder if the snp strategy of cuddling up to the torys is in the long term counter productive.
In time they will turn on the snp
like a mad snarling dog.

brownlie said...


You are supposed to be outside the "nationalist clan" but certainly nobody on this site regards you as an enemy! As a matter of fact you are, I think, coming round to the idea of impending independence and then Scottish Labour might return to their roots.

I suspect that if the Tories do turn on the SNP like a mad snarling dog that that would boost the independence movement even more. I suspect that many Scottish Tories may then turn to independence.

subrosa said...

Brownlie, I noticed that and I replied mentioning 'so you received the brown envelope'. It was obviously moderated lol.

Lesson: don't speak about brown envelopes on Scotsman forums. Like the WV too.

subrosa said...

Niko I don't regard anyone as an enemy although I'd not go as far as brownlie to say your thoughts are moving more to independence.

Really don't think the SNP are cuddling up to the tories. You'll be saying they're cuddling up to the libdems next. The SNP are fully aware if the tories get in then they'll have a similar attitude as they do now but with more courtesy attached :)

brownlie said...


I thought it might have been some-one you entertained in the sitooterie and, I'm afraid the green-eyed monster reared it's ugly head!!

As soon as you mention "brown envelopes" you can hear the cry of "Where's mine?" from the House of Lords.

Lobbydog said...

Tell me Subrosa, does Scotland want independence? It's hard to know what's going on in Birmingham, let alone Scotland, when your stuck in the Westminster bubble here. In fact, I think that's half the problem for most of these MPs.

Conan the Librarian™ said...

In the elections of March 2007, all of the National newspapers were against the SNP; yet still they won.

If only one of the Scottish popular dailies had backed them, then we would probably have a majority Government in Edinburgh.

The constant drizzle of anti-SNP stories are bound to have an effect on the hard-of-thinking Redtop readers...

subrosa said...

I would say around 30% would like independence LD with another 30-35% who wish further powers (mainly fiscal powers). That leaves 35% don't knows or pro the status quo. My figures are on the conservative side I suppose - SNP members may think the support is higher. The least support for independence is in the 55+ age group and I feel like a one woman band trying to reduce that!

Certainly, since the SNP government took over in 2007, there's a definite feeling of confidence here.

With regard to Scottish MPs, more and more Scots are wondering what they do when we now have an active Parliament here. I know what the SNP MPs do - mainly ensure all EU directives are thoroughly perused as they are not necessarily forwarded to Holyrood.

Another person who could answer you would be brownlie, conan (mypseudepigrapha) and scunnert. I shall ask them to put a response on here for you. Then you'll have a reasonable response to your question.

subrosa said...

Ah I see Conan's already replied. I'll contact scunnert and brownlie LD. Thanks for saving me the trouble Conan :)

subrosa said...

LD I've also contacted the young bloggers LD so you should get a selection of responses.

Conan, you forgot to add we still don't have a daily paper which supports the SNP.
The Times also employs anti-SNP journalists and I won't mention the BBC.

Anonymous said...

Lobbydog good question.

If the SNP were subjected to a less hostile media then the independence movement in Scotland might have shifted further over to the nationalist cause.

Scotland has been in Labours grip for 50 years and attitudes amongst Labours core voters are hard to shift.

The main reason i believe that Scots have not voted or shown a majority in favour for independence is because we have a very powerful and effective unionist propaganda machine. Also it is almost beaten into Scots that a vote for the SNP is a vote for the conservatives.

However Scotland's demographics and attitudes are changing and i do believe within the next decade Scotland will either become independent from the UK or become part of a federal UK where the UK will still have supreme control over national security but all else will be in the hands of the Edinburgh parliament.

I still say it will take a catalogue of events to lurch Scotland towards full independence.. Credit crunch, the possibility of a hostile conservative government towards devolution (although not what DC is saying) and some sort of English backlash.

Interesting times ahead..and my answer is yes, Scots (will) go for independence soon..

brownlie said...


Does Scotland want independence? The actual fact is that Scotland wants, and needs, independence in the present day more than it ever did before.

As Conan said there is a concerted news media campaign in Scotland which attempts to drown Scottish aspirations with constant union-inspired negativity regarding independence.

The main Scottish papers would give an independent observer the impression that Scotland lacks ambition, lacks skills, lacks ideas, lacks resources and lacks the will to be independent. Any SNP initiatives are derided and ridiculed with quotes from unspecified "senior" Labour politicians.

For example, a glance at recent headlines in the "Scotsman" illustrates a plethora of anti-SNP slogans which could have come directly from Labour's press office.

The thread running throughout the medias efforts paint a picture of a country too dependent on the good-will and generosity of the rest of the Uk to function as an independent entity.

Which raises the question touched on above regarding why the rest of the UK is so eager to embrace this "liability" and are actively encouraging Scots to remain part of the union.

Historically, attempts have been made to brain-wash Scots into believing that for them to flourish and prosper they can only do so as part of the union.

Recent events have shown that this is a fallacy and more and more Scots are becoming aware of the fact.

Interestingly, David Cameron is one of the very few senior unionist politicians to admit that Scotland could survive and thrive as a seperate entity.

As the leader of the Tory party it may well be in Cameron's interests for the Scots to gain independence.

The Torys can only hope to gain very few seats in Scotland whilst it is still regarded as a Labour strong-hold and provides them with their most senior politicians.

Thus, the Tories could concentrate on, and gain the votes of, their main supporters in England and Labour would be struggling to survive.

When Cameron said that he would do everything in his power to retain the union what exactly did he mean .... or did he mean it at all?

McGonagall said...

Do Scots want independence? It's hard to tell as we've never been asked. There are hard core unionists - mostly in the Glasgow area - but their numbers are dwindling as evidenced by the GE by-election. There are also many English folks now living in Scotland, and although some embrace the independence agenda, many do not.

My view is that independence has the support to win a referendum, but probably won't due to electoral fraud. Westminster retains control of elections up here in order to ensure we don't make errors.

Consider the SNP loss of the Glenrothes by-election (apparently from a huge and unexpected postal vote favouring Labour), and the subsequent disappearance of the electoral register. I would expect the same sort of treatment for a referendum.

Administrator said...

Lobbydog, you hit the nail on the proverbial.

The 'westminster bubble' in essence ignores the concept of an independent Scotland or rather refuses to debate with the concept that Scotland might actually like the chance to determine its own future.

As to whether the country wants Independence, well as my esteemed posters above have pointed out the pro-unionist bias reflects a position that paints those of an Independent mind as being bare-arsed, haggis munching, caber-tossing fascists who hate England.

I dare say these people exist, but I have never, ever, met anyone that fits the description.

Instead, I have several erudite English friends who live here and believe Scotland is best served by being in charge of its own destiny.

We have benefited from many aspects of Union, however, these benefits are long gone, and I believe, came during the empire building days of Victoria, when rapacious greed drove Great Britain to conquer indigenous people around the world and 'steal' their assets, culture and history.

As we have moved into a world of modern history where 'empire building' is recognised as wrong and has been reversed the world over, we find that Independence will bring about our end of empire...

Apologies for length of post...

Conan the Librarian™ said...

subrosa, I took the impartiality of the EBC as read;-)

Took the liberty of spreading the word a bit further.

Anonymous said...

Ah Nike

"....I'm afraid you nats(with conservative leanings) are going to find Dave an implacable foe of Independence. Alongside the labour party the Scottish conservatives the lib dems and now you have made enemies of the greens them as well......"

This simply isn't the case, the myth of a pan unionist cabal is just that, already were seeing cracks in their competing visions of the UK< federal, fiscally autonomous or a stripped devolved Scotland, take your pick, the range in the unionist camp is extremely wide and also tells us something of the fundamentalist nature of their beliefs.

I've said it before and know many SNP supporters want particularly like it but it appears to me that Salmond is preparing the ground for a three question referendum that will give the Lib Dems enough scope to at leastsupport the bill.

1. Negotiations towards Indepdnence
2. Neogtiatiosn towards Fiscal Autonomy
3. Status Quo

This will drive a wedge right down the middle of the 'No' camp, revealing the truth that a significant minority of Scots want to see radical change but want independence to happen by steps starting with full fiscal autonomy.

I'll b voting for no.1.

I suspect the majority of Scots will vote fro no.2

Lobbydog said...

Great response everyone, thanks.
On Cameron, it would definitely suit him in electoral terms to split the union. Labour know it and are scared. Losing Scotland would deeply wound the party as a political force south of the border.
The SNP has caused a funny mix of ambivalence and bitterness among some Tories down here – something the FM has courted – but I still don’t think Cameron would have the guts to go for a split. Old school Tories wouldn’t let it happen.
I’m particularly intrigued to hear people’s thoughts on the media, usually to win an election you need some support even if it’s tacit, so I do wonder what would happen with a concerted supported campaign.
As with all of these things I guess in the end it comes down to the money, at least the SNP admit it, they want control of finances. Most official stuff you hear coming from Westminster is about tradition and history, which perhaps has more resonance down here.
Either that or the money issue is too difficult to touch for Westminster politicians.
If they say Scotland is getting too much from England they will further alienate friendly Scottish voters, if they say they are not getting enough they’ll be prayed upon by the English red-tops – better to just try and steer clear of the issue, they’ll think, and hope the SNP’s support disintegrates.

subrosa said...

Thanks for your reading of the situation inside your bubble Lobbydog.

Also thanks to you all for your articulate posts. said...

Hi Lobby dog, welcome. I know many people who are english and support the SNP, My girlfriend is one and both her parents.They proudly accept their english identitities, As we proudly accept our Scottish identities. The only real problem we have is the confabulation which is Brititshness, a regime setup by some empire builders and profiteers, disabling Scotland via the Aliens acts, cutting 75% of trade, Darien, 2 bad harvests then the money men pounced! A union bourne out of presure, double dealing and deceit. The people were never consulted.

"The SNP has caused a funny mix of ambivalence and bitterness among some Tories down here – something the FM has courted – but I still don’t think Cameron would have the guts to go for a split. Old school Tories wouldn’t let it happen"

I think it is due to the rejectedness feelings, If English people underrstood the SNP is not the BNP they may let up however the media seems to treat them in a simmillar vain. by virtue of 2 letters being simmillar. The SNP are big believers in English independence, welsh and irish. There is nothing wrong with being a proud german , Englishman or Scotsman or woman, but it does not give you or me the right to tell others your superior. A condition of the union that 300 years later still hangs around like a bad smell the superior attitudes of the Britishness Brigade(BRITISH AS IN ENGLAND), where Scots , Irish and Welsh are considered savages still or subservient or "industrial". Just read british flag, the master rufus, Grahamski in the scotsman to get an idea of some attitudes we face from the British brigade(for your info:lead by a northern irish, flute player and part time Sherlock holmes impersonator, he's more British than the queen!most think he IS a british Queen!),

I bet Am2 sits night after night writing perfect english and speaking with a norn oirish drawl and cursing his savage ways like Hume and Smith used to, when they were looked down on for being "guteral scots"

Nikos. The old divide and rule ruse, tsssck tssck. Your more nat than unionist anyway nikos. We know you're a secret admirer!

wordver:doogidou - WRRRAGGGY!!!!

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