Have you tried downloading the document, Rosie?I got an error message.It said "This document is corrupted".Sign of things to come?CR.
I am baffled as to the thinking that Scotland if divorced from the rest of the UK becomes an independent nation if it is to remain a member of the EU. The EU pretty much controls it's member states by taking over most of the competencies and will be taking over more that were hitherto the preserve of the London parliament some of which have been delegated down to the assemblies and parliaments of Scotland, Wales and Norther Ireland. So Scotland will only be changing the chain that binds them but not the laws that bind them. Scotland believes that within the EU as an independent nation they will have a greater say on the formation of laws, rules, regulations and policies. That is of course a fallacy as even the UK as a whole has little or no power of influence as has been demonstrated time after time. The EU treaties are set in stone and there is too many vested interests for that ever to be altered by the UK let alone Scotland.
Antisthenes,It is beyond naivety.I scribbled down a few words here:http://captainranty.com/scottish-independence-woefully-inadequate-plans/It will NOT win me any Scottish friends, and I have to live with that. Just as long as the Nats dig a bit deeper, and think a bit harder.The SNP version of independence is a world away from what that notion actually means.CR.
Thanks for the link. I'll have a good read before commenting...
All sensible Scots will vote Yes.- Aangirfan
Aangirfan,Surely you don't mean that?This is no more independence than a pile of bricks is a house.This is a sham, wrapped in a con, surrounded by misplaced emotion.Let go of the pound.Let go of the queen.Let go of the EU.Until you/we do, independence will remain a dream.Scotland will be classed as a new entrant to the EU, and as such, will be forced into using the yoyo.Independence, real independence, would be a marvelous thing for this country.But not while we a) cling to the past and b) go running to Brussels.If the Nats cannot see this shambles for what it is, then God help us all.CR.
I have never been able to understand why the Irish, who fought for their independence from Britain then decided to join the EU and be subject to far greater control than it ever was under the English. So I can't understand why an independent Scotland would want to join the EU either.I could understand an independent Scotland outside the EU, but fail to see any advantage if it joins the EU as they are seeking ever closer political union.And with Salmond wanting to close the nuclear submarine base, the people of Portsmouth and Plymouth will be cheering him on from the sidelines.
Ditto with the EU comments. Scots are making a fool of ourselves with this indy-pretence - a vanity project. Salmond, IMO, is a traitor, like Blair and Cameron. He is the globalists' puppet who will subvert Scotland with more PC and mass immigration than you can imagine. He wants written in our constitution that anyone in the world can come to Scotland to receive free university education.Mad and dangerous. But at least half the governments are likely to be Labour ones. Look how the "Scottish Mafia" Labour Party got on and it'll give you some idea of the future Scotland - unrecognisable and poverty-stricken. A police state with a sycophantic globalist bully in charge (of whatever colour).The irony is that Scotland is a very rich land, being held back by an idiot class of politician and correspondingly blinkered voters.
Thanks for the link – and a considerable amount of lost sleep.Comfortably propped up in bed with e-reader in hand I set about trying to wade my way through at least some of the 650 pages.However it didn’t take long before I had to give up on account of the saccharin ‘land of milk and honey’ future that was being portrayed. I turned to the ‘Summary’ hoping it would make easier reading.First reaction was that this was not any form of governmental ‘White Paper’ as we would know it, but rather a cross between a ‘wish list’ and a party political ‘manifesto’.As the wee small hours passed the same question kept repeating in my head … “but what if?”But what if … and here you and your readers might help me …Bit what if Scotland votes Yes to Independence but at the first election the SNP are turfed out of office by say Labour, Tory, Lib Dem or any combination …- will such a new government support and work for a now independent Scotland?- If they do are they being honest or hypocritical?- will they try to null the independence vote or seek re-union?- Will they be subservient to their Westminster (now foreign) masters?There are still so many more ‘but what if’ questions.
Ranty, the link is working now - for me anyway.
If I look at it from the other side of your argument Antisthenes, then none of the member states is independent.You’re right, it is a fallacy.
It’ll be the weekend before I study it in depth Dioclese so do take your time.
Ranty, it’s a sake of a choice between the better of two evils but I do hope the EU policy will be rehashed should we get independence.
They were conned EP and as is usia, it was all about money.
I tend to agree with your last paragraph Stewart.
Oh JRB, I’m pleased to hear your reaction was similar to my own - everything free, everyone cared for and a Valhalla forever.How sad when it could have been a document of substance. I’ve yet to read it through thoroughly so won’t say anything more right now.Do hope you’ve made up on sleep. :)
I am more interested in the future of devo-max if we vote NO in 2014. As a devo-max supporter, and labour party member, I for one am rapidly coming to the conclusion Denis Canavan has been correct all along. If we want those kinds of powers, we just will never get them if we vote NO. And that is a reality which breaks this former unionists heart. But surely its time to face facts, and run those percentages of likelihood! I blogged on this, my personal journey away from the BetterTogether camp: http://civicjungle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/indyref-why-im-considering-voting-yes.html
Dean, it has been interesting reading your thoughts.By a quirk of fate I am rapidly approaching the same position, but from a different direction.I have long hold the dream of an independent Scotland; but not one shackled to the Bank of England or to Brussels and the EU.If I vote ‘Yes’ I may get an independence of sorts but it will not be what I had in any way envisaged.If I vote ‘No’ then it will be, at best, the status quo, or more likely Westminster will, in some way, exact some form of revenge and retribution on the Scots for even contemplating separation.We would appear to be damned if we do and damned if we don’t.
As one that would have preferred a clean break - I don't find the paperwishful at all merely pragmatic as a start position - Here I'll borrow the Cap'n analogy - the supply of bricks in order to build and shape the house.In that regard I consider the only damnation we face will be if we don't.
Jings Dean, I never thought you’d come to that decision but I understand why it is. I’m rather like JRB and think we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t.
Somehow I feel the determination of the SG to be part of the EU will be the difference between a yes and no vote Stewart.Such a shame really because we are a rich country and we deserve to make our own decisions. Why isn’t Salmond listening?
I haven’t read enough to comment Crinkly. I’m waiting for my paper copy to arrive.
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