I was alerted to this post of Captain Ranty's by a regular reader. Sadly I agree with what he says.
Like Ranty I too have supported independence for many a year and I was a keen supporter of the SNP for much of that time, but I can no longer support a party which spins the story that ridding ourselves of Westminster rule will allow Scotland to make its own decisions.
If the SNP has its way, cutting the ties with the Westminster parliament will only be cutting out the middleman - much to the delight of the EU.
Currently we are governed mainly by the EU and Westminster and Holyrood are the obedient henchmen who happily inflict every EU directive upon us. At times you have to dig deep to discover the source of what many consider are irrelevant or foolish political proposals, but dig deep enough and usually you'll find a connection with the EU. The 'gay marriage' Bills, in both Westminster and Holyrood, are good examples. The EU wants all European member states to legislate for gay marriage and Cameron and Salmond are happy to oblige.
All too regularly we're told Scots support the EU yet a poll I ran last year suggested otherwise.
Iceland continues to reject the EU, as it has done since 2009. That's why the current Icelandic government will not hold a referendum, because they know the answer will be NO. Iceland has far fewer resources than Scotland yet the people realise that by handing over control of their country to the bureaucrats of the EU, they would lose their ability to govern themselves.
If Alex Salmond was serious about independence, he would have proposed an in/out referendum on the EU before he set the date for the independence referendum. Was he feart that the answer would be 'out'? Perhaps. Or maybe, like David Cameron, he thinks Scotland will be appeased by his proposal that an EU referendum will be held after the independence referendum, if the answer is Yes.
The Scottish government's document states 'We need to become more internationalist and more engaged in Europe'. How can Scots become 'more internationalist'? I can't think of any small country which is as internationalist as Scotland. I've lived in Europe and elsewhere and as soon as I've mentioned I'm a Scot, I was warmly welcomed.
Presently we are 'engaged in Europe' up to our necks. How do we become 'more engaged'? By prostrating ourselves at the EU shrine and losing our identity?
I want Scotland to be like Norway or Switzerland; happy to be part of the European Friendship Club yet not close relatives. Having a 'seat' in Europe seems to be the ultimate goal of many Scottish politicians. That 'seat' possibly will be far hotter than they expect - and the burns far deeper. Only the people will pay the price.
Note: I looked for 'scotland+images' in Google and the above graphic was one of the first to show. How long before the St Andrew's flag disappears if we stay in the EU?
Editor's amendment: I have changed the 'Scandinavian countries' to Norway and Switzerland as I realise I was implying every Scandinavian country was part of the EEA, which if course is not the case.
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61 comments:
What are you havering about. All of Scandinavia is either in the EU or like Norway affiliated to, paying for and following the laws of the EU.
WE could be like Norway - that is a reasonable question. And we can get to that sort of decision when we are an an independent state - not before
Just what does "European Development Fund Investing in your Future" mean???
Methinks the EU employs too many tag-line writers (financed by all of us of course).
Its just Subsidy-Shifting (employing Subsidy-Shifters of course).
Thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of non-productive jobs.
You're right Rosie, the grass may seem greener on the 'other side of the fence', but its still the same old grass.
Out of the frying pan & into the fire is a truism.
Thanks for the link Rosie.
As one of my commenters says: Wee Eck wants all the control but he will defer responsibility to Brussels.
Keeping queenie (post-independence) is a mystery to me. Why can't we have a President, like Ireland?
Why can't we have our own currency?
Why can't we decide our own economic plan?
Why can't we manage our own borders?
I agree that there is a lot of confusion, and there are far too many 'what if's', but most of this stuff should have good, solid answers.
Fourfolksache, why can we not be like Norway (or Switzerland) as soon as the ink has dried on the independence documents? You must know that once we are in the EU there is virtually no escape.
CR.
One thing which, apart from our Island mass itself, which makes us united, is the peoples'understandable fear of the EUSSR.
Independence for Scotland or England, even, is a pipe dream unless we dump the EU Big State Brother.
don't many people support Independence without supporting the SNP? More local accountability in an independent Scotland does not mean handing a one-party state to Alex Salmond, it means people of different political backgrounds going for independence and designing a constitution that meets their needs. Or are the Scots going to sit back AGAIN and let political masters make all the decisions? Europe is a different issue.
Sadly,I have to totally agree with SR and Captain Ranty. What part of being independent is not understood.
The UK has to do what the EU demands of it.Scotland does what the EU demands that the UK demands that Scotland must do. This is dictatorship. There is no freedom, no independence in this relationship.
Just shackles.
The only sane way out is article 50
which allows for 2 years to reach an agreement, if no agreement, we are out. But that requires the UK government to act.In the meantime Scotland will have a referendum, not about whether we want to be in or out of the EU , but do we want to be in or out of the UK?
So Scotland votes to be out of the UK,thanks to SNP policy you will still be in the EU. Regardless of what the UK does or does not do.
Ask a simple question,what is the advantage to Scotland of staying with the EU? Ask the Yes or the No
group, Ask the SNP ,and if you get an answer, one that tells you anything, let us all know,it seems to be the one thing they wont talk about.
The EU which is riddled with fraud that its books still have not been audited.Why do you want to be a part of this Nightmare?
I have stated this before - the SNP have earned the right to take Scotland to independence but they have yet to earn the right to govern an independent Scotland.
That's the context with which we should be concerned and for the present division wont help the fundamental and crucial cause.
The simple fact is until Scotland has chosen independence the Scottish Government would need Westminster's permission to hold an in/out referendum on the EU.
I for one can't see Westminster agreeing to let that cat out of the bag.
I should also have mentioned that because of the EUSSR we have no control of our immigration,we have extreme difficulty getting ride of foreign criminals.
And we have an electricity generation
problem because we have to phase out coal fired generators, yet Germany is building at least 10 and is getting rid of nuclear power stations? This
"green" fiasco is costing us a fortune yet Germany can build new coal fired power stations,seemingly
with the EU's blessing, what the hell is going on?
I’m damned if I do and I’m damned if I don’t.
If I vote ‘Yes’ for independence then that guarantees the EU, to think otherwise is simply naïve.
If I vote ‘No’ then I am stuck with Cameron’s slight of hand, with the ‘offer’ of a vote on the EU but only if we re-elect him, and then itsonly after a period of so-called re-negotiation.
As @Joe rightly says - “Out of the frying pan & into the fire is a truism”
So what are we to do – UKIP? - but they are merely Tories with purple ties.
Therefore, I’m damned if I do and I’m damned if I don’t.
Sadly, I have to agree...
Here's another example of independence almond style:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Speeches/scotland-global-citzen
So the SNP have a policy of entering the EU.
So don't vote for them after independence.
This is fast becoming a trojan horse for a no vote - 'don't vote yes because you'll end up the EU' even although we already are.
The Captain asks:
Why can't we have a President, like Ireland?
Why can't we have our own currency?
Why can't we decide our own economic plan?
Why can't we manage our own borders?
We can't have any of that because we're not an independent country, asking that question before we can even make the decision for ourselves is putting the cart before the horses, so to speak.
After 2016, vote SDA or Tory. One thing is for sure, with Westminster's FPTP system, it'll make no difference how you vote, you'll get whatever the South of England wants (which may well be out of the EU, but it'll also mean years of austerity and neo-con economic policy supporting corporate pillaging and an assault on society.)
Or, you can have Scottish general elections where every vote counts and you get a representative government better reflecting peoples views on everything, not just Europe.
I don't get this at all, the SNP aren't Scottish independence, nor is Yes Scotland - the voters are.
It could be worse than you think. Salmond, former RBS etc. is one of the bankocrats. Scotland could be "sold out" in the fullest sense of the term. Tax Justice Network and Nicholas Shaxson today have post on what can happen in finance/bank dominated countries. So not much will change. Have a look also at Rowans-blog of yesterday, Wednesday.
Pa,
A Trojan horse?
How can you minimise this issue so grotesquely?
Are you so in thrall to the SNP and their (so far) pathetic plans for an independent Scotland that you would ignore the EU elephant? Really?
You call it "..putting the cart before the horse..." but realists would call it sound planning.
It's like deciding to buy a house in a city far away from you and saying "No need to look it over. We can check it out when we move in". Surely you can see that that is just insane?
If we don't know how we are going to run our affairs in the event of a yes vote, then we have no business holding a referendum in the first place.
I don't even want to think about the political climate after independence because I am sure it will change dramatically. Who knows what new parties will emerge?
No. What we need to do is think very hard about what we have now, and how we get them to tell us the truth about the state of independence post-2014.
So far they have failed miserably.
CR.
No need to be rude Fourfolksache. The likes of Norway are in what I referred to as the European Friendship Club but perhaps you were so irate that you missed that bit.
The problem for me and many of my friends is that there is not a political party in Scotland who supports the EEA and not full membership of the EU, so it's obvious there will be no referendum. None of the present parties would dare call for one.
It's true Joe. What's the point if we continue to be dictated to by the EU?
I'm not too bothered about Queenie Ranty because I think once her reign ends the royal family will slowly disintegrate and become far less important in the great scheme of things.
I agree OR.
Yes they do and I'm one of them Belinda. Do you think we would have local accountability? That the SDA's idea but I fear an independent Scotland would have to sink before the people waken up.
Europe may be a different issue but it's an important one. Unfortunately in Scotland today no main party offers a policy about negotiating with Europe about the EEA.
So the UK can't get out?
Anyway I meant that once independent all Scottish parties will be involved and a referendum on type of membership could take place. We will be negotiating our new relationship for some time.
I've no reply to your simple question Apogee because I've never heard any substance from either side of the independence argument.
Yes I remember Crinkly and I agree. Regardless of the outcome of the referendum I think at the next election there will be no outright winners.
Of course Westminster won't permit that and perhaps, because the EU wasn't mentioned, he so hurriedly gave his consent to the independence referendum.
No idea Apogee. Seems some member states do what they want.
UKIP isn't the answer JRB because they want the UK to stay that way.
We're damned regardless. I'm damned for even suggesting a Yes to the referendum is not independence as I viewed it.
Thanks for the link Sheila. Sadly Belinda's idea (above) of local accountability seems further away than ever.
Maybe the 'missing star' is an omen?
No, I don't think it's a trojan horse pa_broon, or at least it doesn't have to be. The Yes campaign could use it to their advantage but they don't.
The SNP government put the Bill for independence through pa and therefore they are very strongly associated with the independence referendum.
I'd like the Scottish government to back off the EU business and not bang on about 'more engaged' and 'more internationalist'. Who writes that stuff?
That's a fear which has been voiced more than once to me Demetrius. Thanks for the blog tips.
SR are you thinking that the SNP's position on Europe would lead you to vote against independence? Is that the better option?
"All too regularly we're told Scots support the EU yet a poll I ran last year suggested otherwise."
As I pointed out at the time, it didn't suggest any such thing. It suggested that the majority of the readers of this blog are opposed to EU membership, which is interesting but not terribly surprising. People are generally drawn to blogs they agree with.
Dearie me.
We can't vote on anything until we have earned that basic right.
The referendum is about who governs Scotland i.e. the Scots and only the Scots in Scotland or a parliament where where Scots are outnumbered by 9 to 1 and relentlessly moving to a far right world of intolerance and social inequality. To suggest that somehow this would mean Scots would be worse off than being under Westminster rule is laughable.
The SNP are a transient political movement tasked with persuading the Scots people to overcome their inherent cringe and conservatism and take their nation back in their own hands. This is a mountain to climb and Scots will be easier to persuade if in the short term there is no unnecessary distractions and diversions into whether Scotland should continue to have EU membership or a monarch. There is no doubt that unionists would love it to bits if the referendum debate became bogged down and lost in these issues.
If there is a YES vote there will be a Scots General Election in 2016 where Scots can decide which political party they want to govern Scotland and what they want done about the EU and the monarchy etc.
If there is a NO vote Scotland will remain in thrall to a Westminster government that does not give a fig about Scotland except when it wants our oil, a base for Trident and the flower of our youth to fight and die needlessly in their endless unnecessary wars. In return we will get no say in whether Scotland remains in the EU or not as it will be the 9 to 1 majority who will decide.
M,
"...unnecessary distractions and diversions into whether Scotland should continue to have EU membership or a monarch."
And:
"There is no doubt that unionists would love it to bits if the referendum debate became bogged down and lost in these issues."
Incredible.
Just how stupid do you think the Scottish electorate are?
I truly hope they are not stupid enough to think those reasons are well thought out and decisive.
They are current issues. Current means they are important right now, today.
Salmond wants Scotland in the EU. There is no doubt about that whatsoever.
Until or unless he changes his mind, I am a confirmed no. And I will do all I can to persuade others to vote no as well.
Don't be blaming the Unionists, and don't be calling the EU a 'distraction'. Your dear leader has it wrong. He has the electorate wrong. Scotland deserves better than being ruled by Gollum and The Unelected Ones in Brussels.
This is a golden opportunity and by tying us to the EU it makes this golden opportunity a rusty, cheap, ugly thing. Not worth having, in fact.
Let's get a divorce, but for Gods sake let's not rush into a relationship with the ugliest, most poisonous partner in the immediate vicinity.
Ireland did just that. After years of living under the same boot as Scotland, she ran off to the EU.
Look how that turned out.
CR.
Is Salmond's leadership a foregone conclusion? Can he sink us into agreements with Europe now that we can't retreat from later?
Are the other people that Salmond will have to beg votes from going to accept him as leader of a one-party state?
Is the rhetoric and campaigning going to be economic or about democracy and empowerment?
There is more cr*p written in some of the comments above than comes out the Better Together lot. The post reads more like a UKIP promotional leaflet than anything else.
Currently we are governed mainly by the EU and Westminster and Holyrood are the obedient henchmen who happily inflict every EU directive upon us.
Any evidence to back that wild assertion up? No non whatsoever.
We can all cherry pick bits and inflate them to suit our own political Right/Left leanings I would rather have honesty than spurious assertions.
Will Westminster change with Scotland in it? Never in a thousand years because we have no influential voice within that corrupt cabal. To encourage to vote No because of the EU is nonsense of the worst kind, grow up.
The EU needs changing and we are impotent in doing anything at the moment at least with independence WE have a choice in where we wish to go otherwise just give up and repent at leisure.
Belinda, as JRB said "I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't".
I'd like to see much more detail and debate about it from the Yes campaign. A bit of honest too would help instead of being told everything in the garden will be rosy because we've a seat at some tables in Europe.
Europe is corrupt as is well known. The SNP didn't always support the EU btw. It was very suspicious back in the 90s - and rightly so in my view.
Don't be daft CH, UKIP has nothing to do with independence so it doesn't feature in this argument at all.
That is not a wild assertion. Evidence is everywhere online. I'm not going to start linking to EU directives because I'm sure you're able enough to do that yourself. Have a read of just a few of those which have come into law in the past few years and see how many the UK has adopted.
Are you suggesting I'm making spurious assertions? I do hope not because I do study the multitude of guff that comes out of the EU and make my own decisions.
So you just want one corrupt cabal rather than two? Fair enough.
I don't see we will have a choice. The EU isn't going to change in my lifetime unless Germany or France want it. Scotland will have little say. All this talk about changing it is nonsense. I'm surprised you believe it.
A great majority of the readers of this blog support independence James and have done for many, many years. It's quite strange that you're implying the majority are against the EU because I would disagree.
What was interesting about my tiny poll was the number of people who were undecided about the EU yet continually we're told that most of us support it.
Believe me not all my readers agree with me; in fact many take the trouble to tell me just how strongly they disagree and I respect their views.
Thanks for introducing a little light-heartedness Jim. Badly needed with emotions riding rather high on this subject. :)
Juteman, don't we have MEPs? I thought we did and they voted on our behalf because they have won the right to do so by being elected.
Don't kid yourselves on that the rUK will vote in a referendum to leave the EU despite what the opinion polls say just now for the UK political establishment has a habit of getting its own way by hook or by crook.
What are you going to do if the 9 to 1 majority in the UK don't vote to leave the EU and we remain firmly within it?
Remember it was a Tory Government and Ted Heath who said that sacrificing Scotland's once great fishing industry "was a price worth paying" for membership of the EU.
Ah, but will we be better off M? The EU is in turmoil and I don't see it changing. It suits Germany and France and they're the big players.
Unfortunately there are people who totally support independence but detest the EU now. That's not going to go away and we can't afford to sweep it under the carpet. These people need to be assured their concerns will be discussed openly and not just be told it'll be all right on the night.
We can't stick our heads in the sand about this. The EU is gradually clawing power away from member states and the folk in these states are powerless. See what's happened to Ireland and recently to Cyprus.
I'm all for being involved in Europe and outward looking, but being a full member is a step too far.
This is a current issue and not something to be ignored. The EU may well be the issue that makes or breaks the Yes vote and the level of debate about it so far has been pathetic - from both sides.
That's a question I'd like answered Belinda.
I certainly don't think so and have said for years that the political scene in Scotland would change if we were independent. Many would return to their 'natural' leanings and that includes people who are paid up members of the SNP.
I would like to think it was all three and not a sake of either/or.
I don't trust Westminster any more than I do the Scottish government on the issue M.
Ted Heath's behaviour doesn't mean to say that the EU will be of benefit to us. Not even Maggie Thatcher's scepticism would reverse that decision although she tried hard.
If we lose the Yes vote and the Uk stays within the EU then that'll be the status quo. I want us to be independent and make our own legislation, not have it dictated by Brussels.
Where is the difficulty in understanding that all the "independence" referendum offers is
"independence within the EUSSR" which means no change from the current situation, and is not my idea of
independence, to be ordered about by unelected apparatchiks, and it seems a lot of people are of similar mind.
Don't be daft CH, UKIP has nothing to do with independence so it doesn't feature in this argument at all.
Anti EU is UKIP policy saying that the EU has 75% of all decisions which is what people against the EU use as their 'information' tag. Is that the figure you believe?
Is the MSN trustworthy in partaking of any information on anything because of their political leanings? No.
Who is worse the EU or Westminster?
I say Westminster by a long long way and don't forget vote No and Scotland will be wiped of the map forever as the UK will take no prisoners as they detest rebellious citizens.
2016 is when one can vote for a party most aligned to ones own political leanings but until then there is only one goal to win to regain our sovereignty as the EU is a side issue until then.
CH, I've never visited the UKIP site and have never accurately calculated the number of directives issued by the EU so I couldn't put a percentage on it.
As I said previously I read many (not all) of the EU sites regularly and pay particular attention to the directives which - usually very quietly - become legislation.
So anything the Yes or No campaigns say that is reported in the press is untrustworthy? You're as cynical as me. :)
Now there's another good point that should be debated and be of benefit to the Yes campaign. What are Westminster offering us if it's a No vote? It would be good to hear how the No campaign deal with that instead of the platitudes they've been giving so far.
I don't think the EU is any more of a side issue than the economy, the type of society we want and how we intend to fund the health and education of our people.
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Those poor dears, above, who think that once we get indy-pretence, we'll get a referendum on leaving the EU, when all the major parties want to stay in it.
Labour and the SNP would take turn about pretending to "govern" an "independent" Scotland under orders from Brussels. (And of course, many diktats start at the UN.)
A truly independent Scotland could be amazing. Indy-pretence, with 1% of the EU's population governed by the other 99%, would make us a neglected backwater, and probably costing us £1 billion a year in EU membership/enslavement fees as the third richest country, considering our oil.
The delusion must end. This indy-pretence is a vanity project. We would be free from Westminster, but toeing the exact same EU/globalist line. To brag about shaking off the shackles of London while being ruled via Brussels, Geneva and by way of every globalist climate CONference is like rejoicing that a midge has stopped biting your leg while Dracula's fangs are buried in your throat.
If you want independence, insist on real independence and stop playing this dangerous game with Scotland. It would be worth waiting another century or two, if need be, to get it done properly.
The EU has ensured that none of the 27 member "states" is independent.
And they will continue to become less independent as time goes on. And more impoverished and less free.
Stop the vanity. Stop being gullible.
Scotland should wait and see how the world pans out in a century or so? Stop the world I want to get off! Ludicrous.
Independence is the first step to gaining sovereignty - how that shapes and forms I'll leave to the democratic process and the will of the people.
Until that first step has been established there is no process that can be developed.
Don't vote YES because Alex Salmond says Scotland will remain in the EU has got to be the daftest reason yet for not voting to free Scotland from a corrupt governing system that is so lop sided the Scots have not once got the government they voted for since WW2.
Fact is Scotland gets what the Westminster political class want and there is no way they are going to allow the people of Scotland to choose by themselves between remaining in the EU or becoming like Norway.
However with independence when we have a truly Scots government in Scotland the claim that The majority of Scots don't want to be in the EU can be put to the test at each Scots only general election.
Thanks for your contribution Stewart.
Democratic process and will of the people Crinkly? Oh how I wish that were the case.
Democracy is in short supply these days and the will of the people ignored. Remember the 3 million or so who marched against the Iraq war?
Your point needs to be made very clear to the electorate M. No false promises and messing around with 'yes we had legal advice' ' no we didn't have legal advice'. It's been so badly handled and that's perhaps part of the reason floating voters are thinking negatively.
Eventually yes, but not in my lifetime, could I see a referendum here on the EU, but by that time the EU will have swallowed billions of our money it won't really matter. Germany and France will be fine though and other countries like Norway and Switzerland, who had the sense to discuss it openly then ask the people.
Ireland have tried that since but were too shackled to their masters and their masters dictated the response required. Do we want to live that way?
Those comments on here calling for independence 'whatever the cost' are the most worrying.
It seems to me there are four groups to think about:
1. Those who want out of the union.
2. Those who want to stay in.
3. Those who feel that leaving the EU is more important than either 1 or 2.
4. Those who don't care.
You will have gathered that I am in group 3.
A nations' sovereignty is like solid gold. It should never be given up, not at any price. It took thousands of years to obtain and retain, and there is no group worth joining if a condition of joining is ceding some (or all) of that hard-won sovereignty.
The referendum on UK leaving the EU is now inevitable. It is not if, but when. Look at UKIP's stellar rise in the polls for evidence of this.
I would despise being locked on to that monster if the rUK votes to leave and we get no choice.
Neither Salmond nor the SNP has the right to force us into that decision. The people of Scotland must be able to determine their own future, not one or two clowns in Holyrood.
Do not assist him in this. Force him to give us the option. We deserve no less than that.
Where is the freedom in swapping one master for another?
CR.
couldn't agree more, CR. I think many people in Scotland would feel very betrayed by the SNP if things are as you and Stewart Cowan say they are and Scotland were to have no more control over its affairs after independence than it has now. People have the aspiration of independence independently and don't see it as a vote for Salmond.
How is such a thing to be forced?
(think I am wavering between 1 and 3)
@SB
If I have unintentionally implied any direct links to UKIP with yourself was not my intention other than my reading of the post being so UKIPesque. Get rid of the EU before independence then forget independence as it will never happen peaceably because dictatorships(Westminster) don't give powers away.
@Captain Ranty
3. Those who feel that leaving the EU is more important than either 1 or 2.
That means that you think that the EU is more of a threat to Scotland's sovereignty than Westminster which is nonsense. Westminster can get rid of Holyrood if it wishes at a stroke and you will be unable to stop it especially after a No vote the EU cannot.
No, I don't.
I know that the EU is a threat to us all.
The UK has lost huge chunks of her sovereignty, and of course that includes us north of the border.
This is now the right time to take it all back.
It is DEFINITELY NOT the time for Scotland to be giving hers away 10 seconds after regaining it all.
It is far too precious a thing.
It sounds like you have no idea what sovereignty is if you are willing to sell it so cheaply.
CR.
Evening Madame,
Independence for me.
Not in EU.
Time to be a Republic.
CR & I have discussed this briefly over a Cullen skink!
CD
Exactly Ranty.
Belinda, if I knew the answer to that then the Yes vote would be in the bag.
I think the Yes campaign needs to be more honest as I've said. All this gilding of the lily makes many suspicious.
Don't think I'm wavering but I'm angry at the propaganda and being treated as if I don't have a mind of my own.
CH, we seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Now, if the SNP weren't so very determined about the EU (and they're the major party in the independence debate), people may relax a little more.
I'm not, by any means, the only one of my acquaintances who feels this way btw. My view is popular round here.
Evening CD. Trust you two to have gourmet tastes. :)
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