Wednesday, 2 February 2011

Is this the time?

For Independence?

Subrosa has blogged on the leaks regarding Megrahi's release. Few people seem that concerned that Gordon Brown is now a proven liar and puts the Scottish and British to shame. It would seem to me that the fewer politicians and bureaucrats, assemblies and talking shops we have, the fewer opportunities for the wannabe rulers to lie. If we as a Nation are to change, we need a Union of these Islands people to agree to hold them to account. This Megrahi incident is a perfect example of divide and rule. Might I suggest that a perfect vehicle for the grubby power grabbers amongst us is a group of EU states, all divided and subjugated to an unelected commission of dictators?

contributed by OldRightie


Elby the Beserk said...

Will Brown burn in hell for ever for his lies? Being a Presbyterian and all that? And what WOULD his father say about it?

Oldrightie said...

A burial plot somewhere near Kicaldy has been suspected of mole activity, Elby, or is it spinning?

Clarinda said...

The United Kingdom is not a nation despite London being regarded as the capital and Westminster only lately responsible for reserved matters relating to the 'united' issues of the devolved nations. I am sure that the English want just as much independence over their internal affairs as so many in Scotland - I think I'm correct in stating that SNP MPs do not vote at Westminster on issues that do not affect Scotland in respect for English integrity.

I agree that the seedy temptation of troughing appears to be a perk if not downright encouraged by certain public office but not if that office is properly constituted and regulated. How many have said that in their own employment when (not if) caught they would be sacked?

The current Tory-LibDem coalition is critised for diluting the intrinsic characteristics and principles of both parties - perhaps one more than the other - but preventing both from functioning, warts and all, independently. With the larger party likely to hold sway exploiting the smaller one ...... now, does that remind me of something?

Too soon before lunch to think about the EUSSR.

Weekend Yachtsman said...

Well said, OldRightie.

Independence for Scotland, say I - REAL independence.

Dramfineday said...

Yes let's part friends, do our own stuff, make our own mistakes, and most importantly, let Scotland grow up!

England was never the problem - it was the weary willies we sent to represent us, party first, trough, gongs, ermine robes and more trough. "Scotland, who, what - is that five years up already?"

As for the EU, associate membership will do me fine - not fully in the club but free to sort some of the stuff we want to do - like fish for instance.

Apogee said...

Hi SR, dont think any one is surprised about Brown's porkies, we would be more surprised if anyone WAS surprised. The Scottish legal system has a few serious questions to answer, but wont.
Aye, independence in Europe. more freedom in an open prison. Better off out, if we musr be in a group, what is wrong with EFTA?

subrosa said...

OR, I do think the Union is finished. As others say we can still be friends but it is becoming more and more obvious that with devolution, England is being left without a voice.

It's the Union which has caused the Megrahi problem. If we were independent then Scotland would have dealt with the whole issue and Blair wouldn't have been able to use Megrahi for his deals on the sand.

As Apogee says the EU must also be addressed.

Weekend Yachtsman said...

Indeed the EU must be addressed.

We'll send them an ambassador and listen politely when they speak.

But we'll manage our own affairs, do our own deals, and make our own laws.

As a great man once said "...and should any European statesman address us and say “Shall we speak for thee?” we should reply, “Nay, Sir, for we live among our own people”."

Ah, dreams.

Elby the Beserk said...


We in England thank the SNP MPs for their integrity.

The same cannot be said of your 41 Labour MPs. If we cannot rely on their integrity (I can't believe I just wrote that), then we have to legislate to deal with their pernicious influence.

Jo G said...

Clarinda I agree with much of what you say.

The other problem of course, when the English berate Scottish MPs is that they fail to understand that Westminster is NOT the "English" Parliament. I suggested years ago when we got our own Parliament that MPs from Scottish constituencies should simply abstain when there were votes at Westminster on English issues. Some do that. Because constitutionally NO ONE can say to any Member of the House "You cannot vote." The reason for this is, again, because it isn't the "English" Parliament.

Jo G said...

I think it is a mistake to label all the untrustworthy types in terms of their location. All the dishonest ones are not just located in Westminster.

We have to remember too that if we're talking about the Megrahi matter Blair started the lies with his deal in the desert. That was all about Megrahi, no doubt about it.

But the SNP are not all innocence either. They could, and should have, stood their ground and told Westminster the appeal would be heard in accordance of Megrahi's legal and human rights. I know I keep saying this but their hands, until this sorry episode, were clean on Lockerbie. MacAskill, and Salmond for that matter, tell a lie every time they declare the verdict absolutely sound and every time they refuse to release the SCCRC report. MacAskill claims various consents were needed. Guess who inserted that clause? It was MacAskill himself. If that wasn't collusion with Westminster over Megrahi then I would like to know what was. And every time I think of that "I and I alone sentence." I feel physically sick. He lied.

I believe ordinary folk not just in Scotland, but throughout the UK, would have supported the SNP in defying Westminster over the dirty deals and backed them in wanting that appeal heard. I think sufficient public backing would have come that our Scottish Parliament would have had no choice but to back the SNP too.

I no longer have the trust in the SNP that I once had and it is all because of this one issue. I remain shocked by their handling of it because the bottom line is they worked with the others to deny one man his right to have his case heard fairly and to deny all of us our right to get to the truth about Lockerbie. We simply cannot have politicians and the legal establishment interfering with our justice system in such a disturbing way.

Jo G said...

"If we as a Nation are to change, we need a Union of these Islands people to agree to hold them to account."

That sounds like an admirable aim to me but what we cannot do is assume that if we get independnce we will automatically have accountability. Right now we don't have it in the Scottish Parliament.

What needs to happen in my view is for the people to get political (with a small p) and remind the Parties where the power to make or break them lies. To their credit the SNP has repeatedly demonstrated that it needs, and wants, input from us (well, except on Megrahi). The other Parties aren't so keen, particularly when it comes to a referendum on independence. Instead, Labour in particular, like to say its the case that the vast majority in Scotland don't want independence. So why are they so afraid to ask the question when the answer is so certain for them? You'd think they'd relish the opportunity to say to Salmond afterwards, "See? We told you." But to dare to tell the people that we cannot decide for ourselves is an affront to democracy yet we're letting them away with it.

No OR if anyone is to blame for the sorry state of affairs that passes for politics in Scotland and in the UK its the people. Apathy is death. We also have, I'm afraid to say, a thoroughly corrupt media and I would say that this, more than anything, has allowed politicians to treat us as they do. We can only guess at the motives within the Scottish media for being the champion of such an undemocratic state of affairs.

Oldrightie said...

Subrosa, a break up of The Union would sadden this old traditionalist but if necessary so be it. Jo G, nicely put, thank you.

Crinkly & Ragged Arsed Philosophers said...

Jo G - well commented.

After "Apathy is death", I would add and fear is oppressive. But that's only tinkering with a succinct and honest opinion.

Jo G said...

"We in England thank the SNP MPs for their integrity.

The same cannot be said of your 41 Labour MPs. If we cannot rely on their integrity (I can't believe I just wrote that), then we have to legislate to deal with their pernicious influence."

England chose not to address the same opportunities being taken by your Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish counterparts on devolution. You view the UK Parliament as the English one and that, I believe, was arrogance, and was your biggest mistake. It is not the English Parliament which is why the constitution, unwritten or otherwise, will not allow anyone to "legislate" by barring any member of the UK Parliament from voting in it.

England might want to do us all a favour and go for broke demanding independence for itself.

Stranger in a Strange Land said...

Not elected but appointed behind closed doors in Sweden by members in the same club.

Take care,

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