It wasn't my intention to comment upon the sacking of Andy Gray, now ex-Sky Sports reporter, but the headline in today's Scotsman 'Conspiracy theory as Sky sacks Andy Gray' amused me.
Although I'm not a football enthusiast at times I'm subjected to the sport on television. Today's football commentators are like footballers to me - overpaid and not without a large dose of self-importance.
Andy Gray is currently in a legal dispute with the News of the World over the alleged phone tapping scandal. His boss at Sky owns the newspaper and now his pals are saying he was sacked today because of his legal challenge. It's implied Murdoch engineered the sacking.
What nonsense. Andy Gray was sacked because a third video tape, in which he asks a female colleague to tuck his microphone wire down his trousers, 'happened' to find its way into the media. That's the behaviour of a teenager not a man earning in a year what many earn in a lifetime (said to be £1.7 million per annum). Add the official warning he received yesterday about his incongruous behaviour prior to Saturday's broadcast and Sky could do nothing other than sack him. With his experience in a very competitive industry he surely realised there are always those further down the ladder who think they can do the job better.
However, the main point of this post is this - why do so many people who work or have close contact with the media not understand the definition of the noun microphone? A mike was possibly the reason Gordon Brown lost the last election. Many minor celebs are never heard of again because of 'off-air' chatter when they are still miked. Carol Thatcher springs to mind. Careless talk costs jobs and Andy Gray, with his 18 years experience in the media, ought to have been much more aware of that than most.
It's reported he's talking to his lawyers about his sacking and feels it's unjust. I suggest he's wasting his money.
Brendan O'Neill doesn't agree with me. He says Andy Gray should not have been sacked because he was 'saying something to a colleague in what he believed was complete privacy'. He misses the point. No workplace is private, particularly one which involves a television or radio recording studio.
Just minutes ago I heard his colleague Richard Keys has resigned. A good move because he can possibly return - after a suitable period of contemplation - to the world of sport, but it won't be with Sky.
There are winners though. They are the women involved in this sordid business.
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I am glad they are both gone Andy Grays dirty old man put yer hand down me troosers little girl aside.
The Lineswomen needed some support and encouragment being like Daniella walking into the Lions Den.
Those two 'MEN'(I dont think so) instead of standing up for her went straight in and kicked in the back.Alongside every other mealy mouthed sexist loud mouth...
Good riddance to both of em
O come on!
With regard to the comment about the lineswoman, it was nothing more than the sort of thing many of us have said at times about (say) lady drivers. What's the point of talking about a football match if you can't bad mouth the referee, at any rate in private?
I have no doubt he's a pretty objectionable specimen and have never understood why "personalities" of this sort are able to command the money that they do but the media frenzy is totally OTT and disproportionate.
It creates the sort of atmosphere where people are afraid to speak their minds. Canvassing in the 2005 election, I was horrified at the number of times people suddenly checked themselves when speaking to me and asked "Am I allowed to say that?" The Thought Police are far too powerful and this will only increase their grip. I would like to see a general bonfire of "equalities" legislation. Then there would be fewer people going round anxious to be offended.
It does look like a planned operation to get rid of him.
Authorising the release of 3 private videos in a planned sequence on youtube and to the MSM to create the maximum negative publicity for him.
Whenever Gray was 'live' he was nothing but professional. I don't agree that you can't have private conversations at work SR. That would be intolerable and a terrible strain for your whole shift at work.
I'm sorry to report SR but the banter that was heard in the tapes is what all blokes say to each other at football matches. We don't necessarily agree with it but feel obliged to slag off all officials ( especially burds) and I'm genuinely surprised that the remarks are as tame as they are.
Well said Niko. I support freedom of speech but I detest this attitude of men around the age of Gray who denegrates women. Having read is behaviour with the women in his life I detest it even more.
Edward I haven't commented on Gray's opinions but only those done within a television studio when he knew he had a mike attached to himself. After 18 years in the business and at the top for some years, surely he realised any remarks he made 'off air' would be recorded. There is always someone who wants your job in any industry.
RM, we're of the generation when we could have private conversations at work if we didn't work in a recording studio.
Gray was paid for working in a recording environment. He should have been very aware, as I said in the post, of people who wanted their jobs. He was arrogant, thinking he was above that.
Maybe that banter is heard RM and I'm all for free speech. But when a person is paid £1.7m a year to broadcast his opinions he ought to think of his wider audience. Us women are fed up with the attitude. Believe me.
If yours in the attitude of men today RM then women need to take men to court who make such statements in a studio, whether 'live' or not.
I heard a chap earlier who said he was a haulier who employed both women and men and said this kind of conversation went on all the time.
That's fine with me. His staff don't broadcast world-wide though do they.
Of course there are those who were desperate to get rid of him. He was just too stupid to understand that.
I wonder if we'll be able to say anything soon, for wondering about getting the sack, or ending up in court.
We can't criticise anyone these days for fear that they may belong to some bloody minority or another and criticising them is absolutely NOT allowed.
Political correctness, yes maybe.
I'll get shouted down, but sometimes I think it must have been much better in the days when men did men's things and women did women's. And they met in the bedroom, alone, just in time to fall asleep.
Tris I understand what you mean. I'm just grateful I'm no longer in a communal workplace.
But this man purposely insulted women and I was one of those who fought this kind of erm... nonsense back in the 70s.
Mr Gray doesn't have much, if any, respect for women. You just have to Google his lifestyle. I heard about him some years ago. Stupid man thinking he could beat women in anything. Should know better at his age.
"There are winners though. They are the women involved in this sordid business."
I'm not sure they are winners. Oh, maybe they feel like it.
But all they've 'won' is the right to keep looking over their shoulders to make sure that they haven't said anything within earshot of their enemies that could possibly be used against them, by claiming it's 'offensive'....
Hi SR,long ago and in another country, when I first started work in a broadcasting station, from the first day it was impressed on you, and everyone else, to the point it was fixed in your mind, "while anywhere in the building, or on an outside broadcast, ALWAYS REMEMBER that there may be AN OPEN MICROPHONE." Could be due to a fault condition,so the usual ON_AIR indicators are not functioning, human error or stupidity, but if you swore or said anything to upset any one, it was YOUR FAULT for what YOU said. Always THINK MIKE.
These guys got careless and rather silly. Their fault for getting caught out. Just because you didn't see the mike was plugged in and live with a recorder running is no excuse, some rules you dont break and these guys broke them.
You must have lived a very sheltered life, SR, if you think sexual banter and flirting does not carry on in the workplace. It does. Charlotte Jackson seems to laugh it off in the clip. As long as it does not become incessant and/or physical then I don't see the problem.
I think there is an agenda here which has nothing to do with sexism. In that sense, the 'row' is basically a pretext to get rid of him so it is a sham. We can only speculate as to why Sky would wish to do so.
The farcical nature of the situation can be summed up by the 'feminist' outrage of Karren Brady demanding Richard Keys apologise to 'all women'. That's Karren Brady, long-term colleague of pornographers David Sullivan and David Gold. Aye, someone who is really against the exploitation of women, obviously.
Oh no! It was all going so well here and then you posted that, Rosie. ;)
Sorry, I have to disagree with you a little. Oh, OK, you got me ... a hell of a lot.
No reason to sack Gray, it was just vindictive and wouldn't be permissible in any other line of work since he can point to 18 years of value added to negate any harm caused to Sky here. I hope he wins his case as otherwise working class businesses like mine will have to sack two or three every week since we're not that bloody sensitive, nor do the women who work for us want anyone to be (you can ask them if you like).
Keys was right to resign, I'll agree, and when I heard he was thinking of it I was praying for his own sake he would. Who wants to work in such a ridiculously over-sensitive atmosphere where your life can be torn apart after a sustained campaign from the BBC and the Guardian?
Brendan O'Neill nails it yet again.
The women could have retaliated Julia yet they've kept reasonably silent.
Just hope they don't start a string of law suits.
Thanks Apogee, that's the point I wanted to make.
No I haven't led a sheltered life William but I've been given a reasonable amount of common sense which allows me to know how you behave in a workplace.
Did I mention the word sexism in the post? I deliberately did not. That's up to the person addressed if they feel the remark was sexist.
My point is the juvenile behaviour of two men who are icons to millions and the fact they work(ed) in an environment in which comment can be recorded at any time.
I've been in workplaces where the banter and comment perhaps isn't acceptable in this day of political correctness but it hasn't troubled me or any present. Thing is it was confined to a small number of people. Their arrogance and stupidity that was their downfall. In the media business competition is fierce.
As for Karren Brady, whoever she is, she doesn't speak for me. I don't want an apology. Andy Gray's opinion of women is well known here. He's a womaniser of the worst kind. It's his downfall that he couldn't keep his personal opinions our of his workplace.
Disagree with me all you like Dick. Of course there are other issues behind Gray's sacking but I have no sympathy with him. He is fully responsible for his own downfall giving those around him with another agenda such ammunition.
The way he behaved in the clips shown is like a petulant 12 year old. That's not the professional behaviour of a person who earns £1.7 million a year.
Dick, I'm not against banter in the least and it's happens in many workplaces. I'm not against free speech either. But when the man is stupid enough to deride colleagues when he's miked shows he's not worthy of his vast salary.
They wanted to work in that atmosphere. They were happy to take the monthly cheques. It wouldn't be for me working in such an environment as it's far too political for me but it was their choice.
Hi Subrosa.
I hate to disagree with you, but on this occasion I do.
The important point here is that HE WAS DISMISSED. Why was he dismissed? Because someone left a mike open, and not because he said something awful. What he said was a variation on an old joke - a little giggle between friends. His previous jokes are irrelevant in respect of the fact that HE WAS DISMISSED. His income is also irrelevant.
As regards the Gordon Brown affair, what was wrong was what he said, and not that he said it. The damage was that he accused the person of being bigoted, despite the fact that she was making a valid point.
As a nation, we have to guard against these manufactured abominations.
I hope that Grey takes it to court. It will make a change from women taking their employers to court for some perceived sexual slight. In that respect, it is clear that the law is an ass and is a consequence of ill thought through equality laws.
Answer this for me - what law did Grey break?
Junican, feel free to disagree with me as much as you like.
Since I wrote this post there has been much talk and yes, I agree perhaps I was rather harsh in my post this morning but I still think, with his experience in the media business, he would know to be cautious when wearing a mike. His income is relevant because it shows the world how valuable he is to his employer.
Andy Gray is well known in this part of the world and his views about women are also well known.
If he'd asked his pal Keys to stick the mike wire down his trousers would he have been sacked? Would the person who was desperate to stick the knife in him have bothered to upload the videos to Youtube?
I'm not going to judge what law he broke junican. All I'm saying is that the man is a fool for behaving the way he did when miked. He knows the mike could have been open.
Here's a hypothetical situation. If I was working in an office with males and females and needed help tuck a mike wire down my skirt, I'd ask a female to help. Am I old-fashioned? Very possibly. :)
Morning Rosie,
Charlotte did laugh it off but she is a lady who has stripped off for mens mags before. She therefore takes no offence and indeed has used her femaleness to assist her career shall we say.
However I do feel Gray was set up. The little anon release of info via youtube does look a little suspect in its motives.
Better to have paid him off behind closed doors than the media circus that this has become.
Keys also made a statement about dark forces and being told he did not have to go.
I await the arrival of Max Clifford soon enough.
I am an Internation rugby ref as you know. I have ref'd womens matches and last year did the ladies anglo celtic cup final. Before during and after the match I was subjected to abuse about me overseeing a ladies match..........you can imagine what was said.......and that was from ladies. Oh and please no one go on about rugby being the shining light of respect for officials..........it bloody well is not.
I agree with Tris things are going too far. You can not say a damn thing these days without fear or trepidation.
Gray was an idiot............he should have behaved better.
Karen Brady is an idiot as well ..........she is a hypocrit.....she exploited her femininity when she took over Brum City FC. She did many interviews about being a female. She got the job next to Alan Sugar on the App prog because she was female and they wanted a female to replace Margaret. Plenty of men could have done it. I was going to mention her friendship with a pair of porno chaps and the money she has no doubt used in various business exploits coming from that field. If her morals on sexism where that high she would have stayed well away.
Are they going to take that lunchtime prog Loose Women off the TV now. That is the same in reverse but I dont see men shouting at the TV over that. But I know there will be a rake of complaints going into the prog now as people have a go back.
No bady has come out of this well.
Keys and Gray gone, lady linesman will be taunted left right and centre every game she goes to now, Karen Brady looks a fool........and now everyone will look over there shoulder before uttering a word.
Well there you have it.
In a world that's falling apart by stupidity; a stupid man gets £1.7 million a year, for a stupid job that has the equivalence to a stoker in a diesel train and everybody gets fired up about it and screams conspiracy.
Is it indicative of anything?
Only that the masses are addicted to their opiates.
Hi SR, In a broadcasting sense, what this pair were doing was the same as filling your car with petrol while smoking, a very stupid thing to do.
And where do you think the Christmas tapes for the studio Christmas parties come from, or the outtakes that sometimes get made into a program when they need something cheap.
A Professional broadcaster always is aware that when working, anything they say could be recorded,at any time, its a risk of the trade and a Professional knows this.
This pair are not the first ones by a long way , being fired for saying something stupid in front of an open mike, understand that the owners of broadcasting stations are very sensitive as to what is tagged to their stations, it could cost viewers/listeners and thats money.Destroy some of your bosses profits and see how long you keep your job!
Auntie Annabel Goldie should have taken Phil the Greek to the cleaners over the tartan knickers comment.
As so often happens, SR, I agree with you. As my name indicates, I'm exiled in England. Last week, when playing in a four-ball with another Scot as my partner, I was subjected to banter along the lines of, "Did the other two get fed up not being able to understand the two of you?" etc. All good stuff to which we responded in kind; nobody was offended. The comments by Andy Gray and Richard Keys on the other hand were NOT jovial banter. They were serious. I can do no better than to quote from a post on Arseblogger, who is no shrinking violet as far a profanities are concerned -
"It’s no real surprise to be honest, they’re a pair of smug, cocksure know-it-alls who think that they’re somehow important in the grand scheme of things. They’ve been doing Premier League football for a long time now, too long. They are outdated, half-witted dinosaurs with a bit of technology at their disposal. Their caveman attitudes are fairly typical and without wishing to go too far off point if this is the way they think about female officials (and the general understanding of the game by women) is it any wonder we hear the kind of crap they spout about leg-breaking being part and parcel of football or how Lionel Messi might not be able to do it at the Brittania Stadium on a cold Tuesday night?
It is irrelevant, archaic nonsense that should have no place on modern television. Sky have been ruthless before, sacking Rodney Marsh for an ill-judged quip about the tsunami years ago. Well, this is worse. Far worse. And that it’s not the first time this pair have been caught out suggests there are those inside Sky who are tired of their self-important blustering."
The full post can be seen here -
http://arseblog.com/2011/01/a-gray-day-for-keys-chamberlain-centre-halves-and-rvp/
How convenient that footage of Mr Gray asking a female colleague to tuck his microphone into his trousers just happened to find its way to the media a few days after his faux pas with females and the offside rule!
Of course Mr Gray is suing the News of the World claiming his phone messages were also intercepted in the current ballooning scandal. How stupid can you get? It is surely not a good idea to bite the hand that feeds you by suing a part of the media empire that employs you! Definitely a case of Mr Murdoch putting out the trash I would say, Sky had that footage for ages but it only finds its way to the media now? Mr Gray was pushed, having fallen victim to the old syndrome of thinking you were irreplaceable, he isn’t, nobody is!
Can't agree with you on this Rosa. l'm with DP.
Dread to think how the righteous PC brigade react when they leave the bubble of the UK and go into the real world. Prob come back crying and need counseling.
Was there any thought for this female linesman? What Gray quipped about her will seem like a compliment compared to the abuse she'll get from fans now. Not to worry though ... the righteous PC lot got their way, eh?
LotF, just because Charlotte poses half, or nearly, naked in a mens mag doesn't make her any different to any other woman. She was posing for men and that was her choice.
Gray has been long enough in the football business to know that it's changed radically since the days when he kicked a football around at Tannadice. Families are encouraged to attend and I suspect families also watch and listen to his opinions on TV.
He brought about his own downfall with his arrogance and untouchable attitude.
I know nothing about Keys so can't comment really.
I've been at rugby matches (and socials) and heard it all in my day LotF. In fact I've been know to start off a few risky ditties, but I was in the company of those who knew the difference between right and wrong.
To save his blushes I won't mention his name but on occasions I used to be in the company of some well known rugby players. This one in particular used to reprimand his colleagues if they swore in front of his wife with 'lads there are ladies present'. Different class.
Well said RA. I breath of common sense if I may say so.
I think most broadcasters keep snippets don't they Apogee?
Obviously someone didn't quite appreciate Gray's talents so uploaded them for 24 hours onto Youtube.
Don't you wear knickers LotF? ;)
Afternoon Jock. As I've said I'm all for free speech but there's a time and a place - something most of us cotton onto at a young age.
There's another chap on Sky who I think is head and shoulders above the Gray/Keys duo and he currently presents Countdown as well. He deals with results and I hear him when I'm drifting past a TV. Utterly professional he is.
Thanks for the link. Much appreciated.
Exactly Munguin. If you're going to sue your employer then you make sure your behaviour is impeccable and also you don't give them any reason to point a finger.
Of course he was pushed. He was shoved along the minute he announced he was suing the NotW.
No Smoking Hot. This isn't about the righteous and political correctness. It's about standards.
This is about a pompous, stupid man making lewd comments in a work situation. Of course that goes on all over the world and it's human nature. It's not expected from someone who earns more than many of his fans do in a lifetime or who doesn't understand what a microphone does.
As I've said before he should have watched his back once he decided to sue his boss.
I'm not really interested in what he said. Around here his opinion of women is well known and he's the one who has made sure of that.
I haven't mentioned the word sexist because I don't quite believe his comments were sexist. That's a difficult word to use and a strong one. No, he was insulting but doing it in a place where he knew millions could quite easily be informed. And so it was to be ...
I'm disgusted at the sacking of Gray. This is completely over the top and linked, i think, with Gray's legal action against NOTW.
Jokes about women not understanding the offside rule have been around for centuries for heavens sake. And if this is about equality how come its ok for women to slag men off? (Check out Loose Women people, if you can actually bear to stand an entire programme's worth.)
These things that were said were private and clearly leaked too, especially the second revelation involving Gray. Seems to me someone was scoring points and for reasons not remotely connected to outrage at sexist behaviour.
I also think on a legal basis Gray might win his case. I hope he does.
I am also very peed off at the likes of Edwina Currie on QT tonight showing an ignorance of Gray the football player. He was a fab player. Also, as a woman, she embarrassed me with her very one sided view on the matter. Women very often misbehave and are sexist. (Edwina of all people knows this!) I think this whole thing has been blown out of all proportion.
I can't understand why so many people keep saying Gray's remarks were 'private'. For goodness sake, he was in a TV studio, ready to go on-air and with a live mike attached to his shirt. A less private scenario I can't think of. He was working too.
He's stupid and that's all there is to it. Yes they may have been leaked but he should know the score having been in that competitive type of environment for so long.
Jo, I saw him play at Dundee United. He wasn't fab he was good. There were others as good as him. He stood out because he didn't have a pleasant demeanor around women and I know men who have asked him to mind his banter in the presence of their wives/girlfriends.
Gray brought about his own demise. You don't sue your boss then not make sure your back is covered.
Two wrongs don't make a right where women are concerned.
I've never seen the programme you mention so can't comment.
I disagree too Subrosa that women are the winners here. As a woman myself I'm embarrassed by it because I see so many of my own gender making a living out of slagging off men. Sorry, we really need to get a sense of humour back.
Gray was stitched up by someone who got that footage to the media. No doubt about it. And it wasn't done out of any sense of outrage about sexism: it was about vindictiveness and nothing more. That cannot be admirable no matter which way we look at it.
And if we despise footballers', or in Gray's case, former footballer, contempt for the female sex perhaps that's because there are so many of our "sisters" running after them 24 hours a day looking to bed them and, hopefully, sell their story to ...................erm, News of the World?
Subrosa, I'm talking post Dundee United. He had a great career in England and I think he was a wonderful player.
And the conversation was indeed private. It wasn't said during a broadcast. I would repeat the same joke about women not understanding the offside rule has been around for centuries. It wasn't remotely outrageous.
I like Andy Gray. I think he knows football but I think there is more to all this than meets the eye.
I would also say if we have prominent female celebrities who make a living out of slagging men off then the whole issue of "sexism" needs to be reviewed. Because if people like Gray can lose a job over it it seems to me that many female "entertainers" may also be under threat.
Jo I didn't say that. I said 'the women involved in this sordid business'. That means the lineswoman and the woman present in the studio who was spoken to by Gray.
I have a sense of humour. I just despise arrogant, self-important middle aged men who still find 50 year old jokes amusing. Nobody's indispensible and never has been. There's always someone who can take their place. It's to Gray's discredit he forgot that.
What other women do is their affair. I come from the generation where men didn't behave like that in front of women. When even the poorest man would apologise for swearing in the presence of woman they didn't even know.
It was called respect. Feminists have done far more harm than good for women and they continue to do so.
Jo I've said I'm not a football fan and I only followed Dundee United to avoid having to trail back and forward picking up family from the match. Also I was brought up within spitting distance of Tannadice when it was a tiny wee club.
Of course there's more to it than meets the eye. As I said you don't sue your boss then not expect some change of relationship within your workplace.
His job involved being professional in the studio both off and on air.
I've attended high powered meetings with many men who I know have rather sexist views on women, but none would voice them around the table prior to the meeting starting. Certainly not with women present.
The whole business casts Gray in a poor light and brings up the word sexist again and I don't use that word as lightly as many do. I'm not judging if he remarks were sexist or not, but I am saying he's a fool to think he was untouchable in a Murdoch organisation.
Well, as for Gray as a footballer Subrosa, in England he won the Young Player of the Year and Player of the Year in the same season. That was a feat not repeated until Ronaldo. I'm proud of him as a Scottish player. I don't think he thought he was untouchable at Sky. I just think he was shafted by someone who, as yet, remains anonymous. I have more contempt for that person than I have for Gray. The things Gray did, in private, not on air, are the things many men do on a daily basis. And they are also the sort of things women do all over the place except when women do them we laugh. I am not sure that is "equality".
And the woman in the studio didn't make a complaint. Someone recorded it and passed it on. There is something sneaky and nasty about that.
Jo since I wrote the post other matters have arisen. I've said repeatedly Gray gave his enemies the ammunition. They used it. More fool him.
That's true and I do hope neither of the women consider any form of legal action and stay quietly dignified.
This type of thing goes on all the time in the media Jo. I've already mentioned Carol Thatcher and there have been many others. First rule of being in a room with recording devices - watch what you say. If you're wearing a mike someone else controls it.
Pleased to see you enjoy football. I've never got to grips with it, rugby's more my thing. Oh and tennis. Andy Murray's playing at 8.30 in the morning so early night for me.
Subrosa! Darling! Come on! Admit that your initial thoughts were wrong! Everyone makes that mistake from time to time.
It cannot be true that one must not speak just in case there is a microphone nearby. What is important is what one says. Gray did not say anything awful - he mearly made a joke with his pal. A bit of a laugh.
Wherever we are, there may always be a microphone and a video, mobile phones these days being so sophisticated.
Where will it end? Will anything you say anywhere at any time be subject to censure? That idea must stop! The answer is really easy - stop apologising! JUST STOP APOLOGISING! There is nothing to fear - just stop.
You yourself have written all sorts of things on your blog which, had they been recorded on a microphone, could be seen as insulting by somebody.
Junican, dear man, I'm not wrong.
I didn't say one shouldn't speak when in a recording studio. I did say you should be careful what you say and as you say with all today's modern technology you've to be more aware.
In that case you disagree with Carol Thatcher being banned from the BBC? Actually I do because she was chatting in the green room and not on the studio floor.
Of course I've possibly insulted someone with what I write on here but I do try not to be too personal unless I know the person.
Gray's mistake is making it so public he was suing his boss. What a stupid move.
Why is it wrong to sue your boss for tapping into your phone?
I think that's what happened though. It's a clear abuse of power.
SR
There's also a side story here. Why is it so easy to read other people's voicemails ?
I don't remember my mobile supplier warning me to change the default setting on my voicemail pin code. I assumed the phone was secure and was surprised that we all have the same pin code until we change it. How difficult would it have been for the phone companies to have issued random codes ?
I thought about this the other day when for the first time since I bought my mobile I was prompted to change the pin code when I accessed my voice mail. That's 6 years after buying the phone.
I wonder if the mobile companies are slightly worried that their lack of security will be the next thing to be dragged into the open. With lawyers blaming them rather than journalists. Lawyers might claim that the problem only arose because of such poor security in the first place.
William, I didn't say it was wrong, I think I said it was stupid.
Let's be honest about it. If you sue your boss then you're in the firing line. Anyone with a modicum of common sense would realise that.
RM, that's a point we raised here the other night. I was going to post on it but I don't know enough about the technicalities.
I've never been asked for my pin when accessing voice mail but to be honest, I'm sure my phone isn't very secure. The new styled phones baffle me but I must take some responsibility too because I haven't read right through the handbook.
Wish I knew enough about the subject to be able to write a reasonable post though, because it is important.
SR. I went through all the options on my phone to try and see how to change the voicemail pin code but it hasn't been highlighted or anything. Maybe the mobile phone companies have been getting tons of calls from customers and have started prompting a new pin code option whenever a customer tries to access their voicemail.
My phone instructions are long lost. Not that men ever read them. We just muddle through until things work. As for women.... ;)
I think Gray has been very badly treated and I hope he sues SKY for a lot of money.
I was out recently for a meal with some work colleagues. Several of the party were fairly drunk and were starting to flirt with members of the opposite sex with some physical contact. Is that grounds for dismissal in today's world?
The worst offenders were women!
Did this happen within working hours Strathturret? Were you all 'on duty" and being paid?
If not then there's no issue.
Can I just say that I think I'm in love with Jo G?
(Love you too Rosie natch, no matter how wrong you are in this case) ;)
Well I never Dick. Shows the strength of the word consensus doesn't it? ;)
Interesting point Subrosa. It was a works do paid on a corporate card. So not in workplace but....
I'm not a lawyer but my point was if a man made advances towards a woman at that sort of work related event in today's climate I'd think his jakit could be on a shoogly peg?
What I've been reading in the last few days is that it depends who is being addressed Strathturret. It seems both men and women take offence with 'overtone' comments.
Oh, offence = compensation. Just saying.
The world's gone mad but the lawyers are laughing all the way to the bank.
Strathturret:
My boss says that a works outing paid for by the company is like being at work (as opposed to hitting the pub with a few mates from work).
That goes for away days, training days, or going for a meal (at, for example, Xmas...something I avoided like the plague until it was pointed out to me that it was part of my job!)
Hence on these occasions we will not do anything to embarrass the organisation; ie drink too much, be unruly, and we will remember that the boss is the boss!!! I’m not sure, though, if that could be translated to every company.
The big deal with these things is that, a woman may complain if she is getting unwelcome overtures, but a man is thought to be a bit of a wimp by colleagues if he does, unless the woman is a complete nightmare type (auld enough tae be yer grannie or fat enough to have her own gravitational pull!!).
I've had a few occasions when members of staff have come on to me on team out nights. Nah, I'm not bragging. On every single occasion the females concerned fitted the bill. One looked decidedly like Hagrid; one like Professor McGonagall, and one like Voldermort. I didn’t complain, just enlisted aid from mates to avoid them... Ewwww, the thought.
Seriously though not all guys are going to be unfaithful to their wives/girlfriends at that kind of a do. It’s a part of women’s lib that was not thought out.
Yes Subrosa, both women and men take offence at various things at different times. How many people lose jobs over it?
I think you are going very easy on the sisterhood here. Jo Brand is one of the most hilarious female comedians I can think of and she has forged a career out of sexism and slagging men off mercilessly. She trades in it.
Male comedians fill entire sections of their stage act by going through the motions of a trip in the car with a woman driving. Do they get slated? That's my whole point. It was a joke about the off-side rule, a joke!
But the politics, with a small p, behind the sacking in this case are being overlooked here Subrosa and they are highly significant. This is the Murdoch Empire again doing what they do best, playing dirty.
I will say again I think Gray's legal action may just be successful.
And finally I would repeat that the behaviour of women, vulgar, sexist, vile behaviour, in many workplaces these days often puts men very much to shame. The difference is men are often afraid to complain in case they're called wimps.
"Can I just say that I think I'm in love with Jo G?"
Oh I'm blushing now!
I'm not into the sisterhood Jo as I've never had time for the feminist movement. I've always believed we're as good as each other and never expected favours from anyone.
Do you notice Jo Brand, when on the BBC these days, is very pc?
There's been a female movement around in the past 20 years who are vocal in their attitude about the uselessness of men. My first experience of this was when a man held a door open for a young woman and she strongly derided him saying she was quite able to open the door herself. I was too dumbstruck to say anything.
Gray will have to go to a tribunal Jo. Much will depend on the political makeup of it.
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