Saturday, 28 August 2010

Inspired by the recent post.

Independence for EU Federalism?


"We believe a new approach is needed in the way Scotland is represented in the EU. Independence would give us our own seat at the top table of Europe, and until then, we will argue for Scotland to have an enhanced role within the UK, including leading on issues such as fisheries where Scotland has the majority UK interest.

And we will argue for Scotland to take responsibility for immigration so that we can develop a system here at home that more closely meets our needs. An ‘earned citizenship’ system, similar to those in Canada or Australia, would allow Scotland to attract high-skill immigrants who can add to the strength of our economy and help deliver growing prosperity for the whole nation.


Fishing contributes hundreds of millions to our economy every year and provides tens of thousands of jobs. The Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) forces fishermen to throw away about half the whitefish caught at a cost of some £60m. These discards are at the heart of the CFP’s failure. They represent a moral and environmental obscenity and stopping these discards is one of the keys to securing a more prosperous and sustainable future for Scots fishermen.


The Scottish Government is working with the fishing industry and environmental groups to take forward measure such as CCTV, selective gear and real time closures and we believe this is the way forward so our fishermen can land more and earn more without the damage to the stocks that discards represent.


We oppose the CFP and believe it should be replaced so that there is a bigger say for our fishing communities, more regional management and power over fisheries returned to Scotland. And the ongoing review gives us the opportunity to present this radical case."

It would be ironic to observe an independent Scotland, divorced from an independent and EU sceptic UK, become a Federal enclave of Brussels. I suggest that as such, Scotland would become far less it's own entity than as part of The UK.


Contributed by OldRightie

24 comments:

Elby the Beserk said...

I want a devolved Scotland as it means we will very likely never get another Labour government for England. Simple as that - you have your own Parliament, which is fine, but the fact that Scottish MPs can some South and destroy my country is beyond the pale.

You go your way and we'll go ours!

subrosa said...

There's a song about that here Elby. 'You take the high road and I'll tak the low road...'.

Alex Porter said...

@Elby,
Thatcher destroyed your country. Brown just looted the ship before it went down. And yes, Thatcher broke Scotland and used the wealth of her shores to enrich, through subsidies, London and the South East. The illusion of wealth is bursting and that's what you're seeing playing out. Without oil Britain should have been something like Portugal - now Britain is correcting towards reality. I do agree though, I think England should be allowed independence so that Scotland can finally prosper from her natural wealth.

@Rosie,
The article rests its case on fishing and immigration. I'm not saying these are unemportant but they are marginal if you're trying to make a case about Scotland's constitution which is what's happening here.

I don't, therefore think that the case of staying in an 'independent UK' is better than an 'independent Scotland inside the EU' is made.

We would still have no control over immigration and fishing would like still be negotiated by London with the remaining EU. And then there is the small matter of the large majority of economic and social issues to think about..

Far more interesting would be to have the whole debate within an 'independent Scotland' where we can decide on our collective futures in a healthy environment. As an aside I think the EU is heading for failure anyway. With independence we can decide to stay or leave the EU, the Euro and renogitiate the terms of fishing and everything else.

Never forget that Scots got shafted by London long, long before Britain joined the EU. Our problems now come from the same source. We can't afford to have short memories and lose sight of the big picture. I suspect Scotland will still be around long after the EU is gone.

Dark Lochnagar said...

Scotland should be outwith the EU and in EFTA like Norway when we finally get independence. The memebership of the EU is for the UK as a whole, therefore if the UK was broken up, that would be our chance to have a referendum on independence from the EU. We don't need more immigrants. We have enough people in this country who can be re-trained to take advantage of any new job opportunities. Also remember that many Scots, would come back to Scotland if it was independent. As far as fishing is concerned. I was a Fishmerchant for 20 years and the fishing industry has been killed off by the fishermen themselves being greedy bastards. They should have adopted larger mesh sizes and most importantly stopped fishing in the early spring when the fish are spawning. I remember boxes and boxes of 'roe' being landed and looking back on it, it is heart breaking that those twats would fish for species that were breeding, how shortsighted can you be?

Anon said...

Scotland should copy Switzerland. Scotland should stay out of NATO and out of the EU.

- Aangirfan

subrosa said...

Yes Alex, for us they are marginal, but Old Rightie (who wrote the post) is a unionist but to give him credit, he is interested in Scotland. It's good to read the views of an Englishman who doesn't pedal the myth of 'we subsidise you' repeatedly.

Of course we were shafted. I'd have loved to have seen the 'Darien' play which was on last week. I've read quite a bit of history with regard to this event and England played a big part in ensuring it failed. Even those who don't wish to acknowledge that are forced to do so by the evidence.

subrosa said...

Thanks DL, interesting comment.

You've just reminded me that around 40+ years ago, although it was slightly more expensive than haddock etc, cod roe was plentiful. I never took to it really.

Some of my mother's family were small fishermen who were put out of business by the big boys. It was a sad time in our family then but all survived and retrained for other trades.

subrosa said...

Hear, hear Aangirfan.

TartanSeer said...

' ... a Federal enclave of Brussels.'
Where is the evidence for this?
Is the UK an 'enclave of Brussels'?
What about Ireland? Netherlands? Germany?

subrosa said...

I'll let Old Rightie respond to that TartanSeer.

Oldrightie said...

TartanSeer, we certainly are enclaves, to a State. If you have a moment, check out why toilet rolls are no longer large enough, or pounds no longer acceptable in your grocery store.

TartanSeer said...

I don't want to be rude Oldrightie but that is codswallop.

You are not seriously basing your anti-EU position on toilet rolls & metric measurements?

And as for the notion that the member States of the EU have somehow allowed themselves be suckered into a superstate is simply untrue. The EU is founded upon national sovereignty, & indeed each member State (there's your clue!)has the ultimate right to leave if they wish.

You might be on surer ground regarding the future direction of the EU, but let's stop this conspiracy nonsense that the EU has already morphed into the United Nations of Europe.

Conan the Librarian™ said...

Freude, schöner Götterfunken,

Tochter aus Elysium!

Wir betreten feuertrunken,

Himmlische, Dein Heiligtum.

Deine Zauber binden wieder,

Was die Mode streng geteilt,

Alle Menschen werden Brüder,

Wo Dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

Or something like that...

Dramfineday said...

I'm with DL on this one - Independence and associate memebership will do grand

TartanSeer said...

Sounds too good, because it is.

Frankfurt would love to see Edinburgh's financial centre marginalised.

And as for turning Scotland into the green powerhouse of Europe, we'd immediately put ourselves at a disadvantage against competitors within EU.

All Seeing Eye said...

Aangirfan and DL are right in my opinion, speaking as a unionist who will shed a tear and shout a wish of 'fair winds' when Scotland goes her way.

Unsure, though, why DL thinks there will be a substantial return of departees. That didn't happen in any numbers in Ireland for example.

Hopefully it will turn out that membership of the EUSSR will be void for all upon one country leaving the UK but something tells me Brussels won't allow it to work that way.

Apogee said...

I seem to remember about the time we joined the common market, that we did have the alternative of EFTA but the government of the day opted for what is now the EUSSR. WHY it was ever considered sensible to join a wanabe empire where the people are totally separated from the rulers they are paying for with no say as to who their rulers actually are, I do not know, I guess it must have looked good to the politicians, who probably never realised they were seated below the salt.

Elby the Beserk said...

@Subrosa

Indeed, and it was playing in my head as I wrote! As were memories of the ghastly New Year's Eve TV celebrations which always featured "A Scottish soldier". You Scots don't half know how to stick it up us eh? :-)

And as for the EU, it is an entirely undemocratic setup, which in my world makes it a tyranny. Simples.

subrosa said...

It's just that we have more stirring music Elby. Dirges are our forte.

Tyranny. Good description.

Oldrightie said...

Is codswallop the EU fisheries debacle?

TartanSeer said...

A debacle originating with the London government selling out Scottish fishermen as being 'expendable' - both under Heath & Thatcher.
Of course had Scotland been independent & able to prosecute Scottish interests, the fishing free for all disaster would never had happened. Ultimately the government had a veto which I believe any Scottish government, of whatever political hue, would have slapped down on the table.
Certainly, recognising that we are where we are, the only hope is to regain our sovereignty which would allow us to exert maximum pressure with the threat to pull out of the CFP.
Something that the Tories, Liberals & Labour have rejected on Scotland's behalf.

All Seeing Eye said...

But what is the evidence that any party of any colour would even threaten to pull out of the CFP, let alone actually mean it? Just as many if not more West Country fishermen were affected, so it's not just impacted Scotland.

Every party calls for 'reform', or 'renegotiation', or painting it coloured stripes but I see no evidence that *anyone* cares enough to make it a real issue.

TartanSeer said...

The fishing waters signed away by London were primarily Scottish, having a massive effect on our country's fleet, the consequences of which are laid bare for any visitor touring the North East.
My evidence as such that no Scottish government would sign away our fishing grounds boils down to national interest - fishing, unlike in England, is a red line Scottish national interest - which no government could ignore if it wished to remain in power.

subrosa said...

TartanSeer, canI be less polite than you? The fishing waters rights were sold by London. They'd nothing to lose giving them away. No debate, no 'consultations', just pure barter in exchange for some titbits to suit the well heeled.

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