Thursday, 12 August 2010

Afghanistan



A British soldier, serving with the 1st Battalion the Mercian Regiment (Cheshire) has died in the Queen Elizabeth hospital Birmingham, after being injured in an explosion in Afghanistan.

He was on patrol in the Nahr-e Saraj district of Helmand when he was seriously wounded by an IED on 13 July.

The MoD said he died while surrounded by his family.

This death brings the number of British service personnel killed in the Afghanistan war since 2001, to 328.

18 comments:

Harbinger said...

I have a feeling Subrosa that our views differ regarding British soldiers. You may find my latest article offensive. However I would like to point out that I used to be opposite in the way I think regarding the armed forces, although after much consideration and deep thought I came to the conclusion that I have.

Death is death. I do not see heroes who commit illegal acts. Our troops are an army of occupation in Afghanistan and should not be there. They have lost integrity.

subrosa said...

Harbinger, I don't think I've ever called a member of the military a hero - maybe one only.

The military certainly do not like to be called heroes, it's the media which promotes this description.

I entirely agree with your statement but, let's not forget, it's not the armed forces who decide where they're going to work, it's our politicians.

Oldrightie said...

"How many roads must a man walk down..."

Harbinger, soldiers are paid to do their duty. It is the politicians who make the decisions to be where they choose we should muscle in. Always done for money, of course.

Oldrightie said...

How's that for much in common, Subrosa!

subrosa said...

Well done OR. However, I don't think Harbinger really knows my views - or yours for that matter. Be kind.

Harbinger said...

Oldrightie,

A soldier is a human being and therefore must have a conscience. Maybe the public think it's ok that they're illegally in Afghanistan killing Muslims and are happy to ignore they are and put it just down to orders? However, what then happens when the troops are called to patrol the streets when the government declares martial law. Are they still doing their job if it means persecuting the people they're supposed to be protecting?

Some will say the soldiers never will, but then they'll be following order won't they?
How can one justify the killing of Afghans who pose us no threat but not the killing of British people if they're put on the streets. After all, they're only following orders in both situations.

subrosa said...

Harbinger, I think you've forgotten our military are volunteers. Many are of above average intelligence and know they could make far more money working in civvie street but, for various reasons, they chose to join the military.

Those who disagree with orders are able to resign. Some do, some don't. Just in the way people behave in civvie street.

Meanwhile, as you concentrate on the military whom you call murderers, there are murderers much closer to home. Those who believe that gas and electricity prices should rise in order to provide facility for those 'green' taxes.

Let's see how many of our own we kill from this. A few thousand at the least is my guess but of course the numbers will never be published. They'll be noted on death certificates as heart problems, respiratory problems etc. Seldom do we see death by hypothermia unless someone has died on a mountain or outdoors.

It will happen in greater numbers. It's been happening for years yet no one cares.

subrosa said...

Ooops Harbinger, I know you directed your comment to OR, but I understand he's away on a trip for a few days, so I've interfered. My apologies.

Strathturret said...

Subrosa off topic, but I'm surprised you have not done anything on the passing of Jimmie Reid?

subrosa said...

Strathturret, I have a post 'in progress'. Sorry I haven't been quicker but life has interfered. I'll hopefully finish it this weekend.

Harbinger said...

Subrosa,

To say the military are volunteers means that everyone is a volunteer who happens also to be paid a wage. Volunteering normally means doing work without pay - soldiers are paid therefore are not volunteers.

With all due respect I think you're having a hard time differentiating between manslaughter and murder. Our troops are committing murder and I will explain:

If our troops were committing manslaughter they'd be defending themselves from attack. However our troops happen not to be defending themselves in the legal definition of why they're in the armed forces in the first place - TO DEFEND THIS NATION FROM OUTSIDE ATTACK.
Ergo our troops are committing murder because they are in Afghanistan, fighting an illegal war, thus they are the invaders and therefore they are killing the indigenous peoples of that land.

You can dress it up however you may but if you disagree with me then by your recognition, someone whom attacked me and killed me (pre meditation) could argue the case that because I attacked back in order to defend myself he was in the right reason to use necessary force to kill me. Ergo, if means that self defense goes completely out of the window along with manslaughter.

The troops in Afghanistan are murdering people. You will continue to state that "they took the Queen's shilling, they're just doing they're job, they don't question orders and shouldn't be blamed for their actions," to which I say poppycock and that they've legally been given the right to murder with protection, as is happening in Afghanistan and before that Iraq.

Subrosa, this is not the trenches of the Somme or Flanders field where British troops were rightly in a foreign land stopping the aggression of Kaiser William and Adolph Hitler, in order to protect the invasion of Britain. This is pre meditated aggression resulting in the deaths of Afghans (read Taliban) or however you wish to call them. Whether a person puts on a uniform or not, they are still committing the act of murder as explained.

And as for those who charge massive prices on fuel bills then again blame the people for voting in the governments who allow this to happen.

Society only have themselves to blame for the state of affairs and conditions they live in. I don't know how many pensioners continue to support Labour or the Tories, but in reality, it's no different to a Turkey voting for Christmas.

It's time people started blaming themselves instead of others and took personal responsibility for their lives in stead of relying on others to do it for them (and screwing up badly).

subrosa said...

Harbinger, I have to disagree with your cut and dried interpretation of volunteering. In many 'social' environments volunteers are unpaid although expenses are offered, I agree, but there are sections of our public services which do pay volunteers. The police service is one, the fire service is another and the ambulance service is another.

Community police are defined as volunteers yet they are paid and part-time firemen are classed as volunteers yet they are paid and also there are St John's Ambulance and other medical civic services who pay their volunteers. Therefore I don't think you can say all volunteers are unpaid by any means. In fact, as a volunteer with a large charitable organisation, I too was paid for a year or so for my efforts.

I'm not having a hard time at all Harbinger. I never mentioned manslaughter and neither did you until now.

Do you know the wording of the oath our armed services take?

What protection do our troops have? They're not even given the courtesy of being protected by the Human Rights Act yet murderers, rapists and pedophiles are.

I understand your approach but let me say that if we didn't have these people 'volunteering' to take the Queen's shilling, be assured conscription would be with us here and now. Would you prefer that?

Oh Harbinger, I know plenty who support the Tories and have done all their lives yet a few round about here do vote SNP because they believe Scotland should be independent - but that's for another debate.

I do blame myself and my generation for trying to make things better for the younger generation, such as my own parents did, but what my generation though was doing the right thing has taken this country back 60 years.

Harbinger said...

Subrosa,

When one decides to join a company, an organisation, work with a specific group etc, they are all volunteering their services. Some are paid (a bonus) and some are not. Those who are paid sign into a legal contract, by signing their legal fiction (name-MR JOHN SMITH for example). In doing so they sign a contract.

In the olden days sure, there were many people who volunteered to help that community, but then it changed and volunteers became no different to conscripts of the government in being paid money and getting taxed from it.

Therefore you and I will continue to disagree on what the definition of a volunteer is.

I really see things in life quite simply in black and white. There would be no wars in this world if there were no armed forces to fight those wars. Armies were created in the past in order to protect lands and the people within from invasion, yet today it's a totally different ballgame. I used to be so many things today I'm not. I used to be anti Islam, pro armed forces, pro Israel, pro law and order...then I started to educate myself to the massive corruption and the facade created called society. I started falling down the rabbit hole back in 2007.

If people never took the Queen's shilling then it would be a choice of either accepting conscription or not. I certainly wouldn't. After all Subrosa, ask yourself the question who's going to attack Britain in today's day and age? Once you realise that no one is, you then realise that conscription would be brought back in order for you to become nothing more than a pawn, cannon fodder to be picked up and placed here and there at the choice of some arsehole, who because of birth rights, believe they're higher than you? I would never be a conscript and I'm certain millions wouldn't either. The whole idea is disgusting.

Subrosa, with all due respect, British troops have been given a license to murder people abroad to protect the assets of the money men and oil barons, nothing more.
There is no moral defense for any soldier and the sooner our society wakes up to see that the Queen or any other member of the government/royalty/upper echelons of society doesn't give a rat's poo about our lives the better. Then once people come to that realisation can they finally remove these people from their positions of power who create a life of hell for all while they all live in splendour with not a worry in the world.

Change will only come for the good when people start believing and more importantly want to change. If they want to continue playing this game of corruption, more fool them.

Harbinger said...

(cont)

Subrosa, you are part of a dying breed. It's sad to see because I know that there is no malice in your heart and that your upbringing (like mine) was to trust, be good, kind, charitable and humble. However, these admirable views have meant that it was far easier for those in control to manipulate the public for their control and the overall detriment of the people. As I state in many articles, you're like the person who brings just your fists to a gun fight.

The only defense against tyranny is knowledge. Ignorance is its ally and it will create such massive oppression, people are simply oblivious to how much so.
What I'm implying Subrosa is you need not apologise. The kind ethos of the older generations has been abused by those in control. You just never realised how much control they had and have. This will be the younger people's fight and myself at 39 know that I'm in the middle with many my age who have awoken from this pantomime called life.
Our parents and parent's parents were manipulated no different than people today. WW2, WW1, the Russian Revolution, the Boar War, the Crimean War, the French Revolution, the English Civil war.....I could go on to name every conflict within the last 400 years has been created by those in charge to sculpt this world into a nightmare, back to feudalism. Deceit destroy nations Subrosa and you along with everyone has been played and continues to be so. It's not nice realising that much of what you've been led to believe as the truth is nothing but lies upon lies.

There is no need to apologise for non action, however if you do know what the score is and choose to remain silent then you have every reason to.

Life really is simple. It's humans who make it complicated. All we really need in life is food, water and love. Until people see that, nothing will change and everyone will continue the long slide into the abyss where sadly, that's where everyone's headed on a slope they still choose to traverse.

subrosa said...

Whilst I agree with some of your comment - such as knowledge is the only defense against tyranny - I have to take you to task in your assessment of today's military.

Every civilisation requires a group, (preferably well disciplined), to protect them and throughout the ages a military presence, has proved to be the answer.

You say the world doesn't need them. I strongly disagree. Harbinger, not every person in the military joined to kill, far from it. I know of many who joined because it was the only outlet for their acquired knowledge for any in society.

In my experience the majority of our military do good for our society. It's a closed world to civilians the military, but I assure you it's not filled with yes men or women, although discipline and team work are top of the agenda. These are the attributes which encourage competence.

No, I'm not part of a dying breed although I agree my upbringing was along the lines you mention. Presbyterian parents; daughters didn't require a university education; daughters didn't become anarchists or question their male counterparts. Luckily my parents weren't against their daughter receiving an excellent schooling but were so disappointed when I refused to become a teacher or junior executive in the civil service.

Of course I know how much control the establishment had and have. All my life, in a minute way, I've fought against it, even joining a political party at one point because I firmly believed in their policies. But I didn't conform, I refused to toe the party line, I refused to stop questioning, then I resigned from my official post. Never again will I join a political party but it was a most interesting experience and brought to life much of what I've studied and discussed throughout my life.

My parents concentrated on making our lives better than theirs. With hindsight we could say they were abused, but the 'system' didn't allow for dissent.

You are of my offspring's generation and they fortunately have the qualities which were taught to me but they are far more aware of world-wide issues, owing not least to the internet. When I was young newspapers and television were our access to information - which was never questioned. How could we? We had no access to other opinions unless of course, you were a member of the establishment.

Harbinger, auch, I make no apology for non action because I have acted against inequality all my adult life. My problem is you see, that I'm female and also I wouldn't stick to what my superior male colleagues suggested. If I'd been a male I would possibly have been part of the establishment.

Have we progressed in my lifetime? No. All my adult life I'm studied and argued on a social science level, and now I think women are more suppressed than ever. Only 6% of women, I read today, are in top jobs in this country. Shameful.

Who to blame? As you say knowledge is defense. Unfortunately the acquisition of knowledge in my lifetime has seriously declined. We've been manipulated in the past 50 years far more than my parents' generation ever were, yet nobody protests about the quality of our formal education at all.

Auch, as long as today's generation can wear a hired gown and wave a piece of paper at a camera and parents, that's achievement. Not for me. I'm disgusted by the way the younger generations are manipulated into believing it's worth spending 4 years at some university for nothing other than a beer belly in the case of young men or 4 years of finding a partner for young women (I speak generally because, of course, not all can be labelled such - similar to our military).

Harbinger said...

Subrosa,

Firstly, I'd like to thank you on finding someone to have intelligent debate with, albeit we will disagree (a very healthy sign that society is progressing and thought is very much an ongoing result of such) on certain things. At the moment it's the military and of course volunteering.

I see the situation with the military quite simply that as long as they exist governments will have their ultimate weapon with which to bully others and their own people who disagree with them.
I will certainly agree that in the past when we never knew what was around the corner, within a very un-global world. We had the situation where the west invaded and destroyed, but also educated and helped. It is very much the latter which is not promoted in today's society. However, that said, the many problems that we face are directly due to actions of our ancestors. It is easy to assume that had there been no slave trade, there most certainly would not be as many Africans in the west as there are today. Not that that's a bad thing, but when demographics are looked at, as described in articles on my blog of late, it's a worrying prospect for the indigenous peoples of this land and their cultures.

I do not classify all military as stupid, but I certainly see them without conscience. If I was doing a job such as they and it involved me doing wrong, I would most certainly face court martial. If you recall, I wrote (on my blog) of not obeying the boss's decision, while as a doorman to beat up a customer. It was immoral and wrong. I made the choice. It was a case of following orders and I broke that in order to do the right thing. The armed forces should do the same. It's time they started looking at themselves as people who defend their nations and peoples, not automatons of government and big business to protect their 'financial' interests. You and I will always disagree with each other on this subject. I come from this from a younger and an older viewpoint as I will explain...

More importantly if nations don't have a military, whose there going to be to fight one another? And even more importantly, warfare has moved on. Ww3 will not be the job of the stalwart infantry, but one of weapons of mass destruction that will cause massive devastation, very possibly because I see the armed forces waking up, especially when their governments try to impose martial law, as is rapidly happening under the Obama administration in the USA. I suggest watching the film "The Siege" with Bruce Willis and Denzel Washington. It's rather enjoyable.
We will continue to disagree on this Subrosa. I want to see people taking direct responsibility for their actions, learning their rights and common laws and being allowed to carry firearms to protect themselves, not relying on corporate controlled, bully boys who have lost their way - police.

Harbinger said...

(cont)

Subrosa, although I am 39 years old, I have a very wise head on my shoulders. Forgive me for blowing my own trumpet as it's something I rarely do, however I have so with good reason. When I was a mere lad in my pre teens, I would sit with the 40 and upwards, in my parents small hotel and listen to their words. When I left school I would drink with 40+ year olds. I would go out with my friends but most of my time was associating with my elders, very possibly due to the fact that my father failed in his nurturing of me and I looked for adult guidance as well as many father figures. I am able to relate to anyone in life and always have been, however I do feel disconnected from my own generation, as they associated with one another.

Having lived in London for 16 years of my life and coming back home after a shattered relationship and dreams, I enrolled and was accepted into university. I started doing a BA(Hons) in Computer Arts and Animation and was surrounded by 18/19 year olds. Apart from not being able to relate to any (well there was one who was 27) I was astounded by some of the modules. One in particular was taught by a woman who wanted to teach us about Walter Benjamin. Being an intelligent lad, whose read much on Marxism (most notably the School of Frankfurt), I thought to myself - "what on earth has Benjamin got to do with Animation and Computer Arts?" It was then that I realised this wasn't for me. More so, I'd be 43 when I finished and didn't fancy getting into the animation game with people half my age, easily controlled and manipulated. I wanted a challenge and as much as I've been a proponent of the video game industry, it's far different to when I was young when games were created by game lovers, not multi corporation controlled, money making schemes.

We live and learn as we grow older. Thanks to the internet so are the young. However on that many have bought into the 'globalistaion/we're all the same' ethos. We're not all the same and that must always be promoted and encouraged.

subrosa said...

Harbinger, you state all military personnel lack conscience. Quite a sweeping statement which I soundly refute. Your image of the military is obviously one of a soldier wielding a gun. Military personnel are given fire arms training which they can use to protect or kill. Medics are given training which also is to protect but can also kill. Likewise the police service. All these public servants are without conscience then, but of course, you'll protest that doctors sign the hypocratic oath and police only use arms in specific situations.

Are you aware that many of our military do work other than killing? Our military attracts many high flyers who would otherwise take their talents abroad. It can offer these people the facility to develop their skills; a facility which in recent years is no longer widely available in this country because we no longer manufacture or invest much in research and development.

I've seen the film Siege and enjoyed it. Plenty political statement within too.

We can agree on one thing. Education today has failed a few generations since my day. Lecturers no longer have to study their subject for years which results in the experience you received. Too few young people are given the skills in school to question their informers. The best lecturers are those who interact with their audience and genuinely enjoy it.

Sorry to hear your reason for returning home was a sad one. Been there, done that, got the T shirt. My reason for returning home was not that though, it was because the English education system was failing my family and I was determined they would receive an old-fashioned Scottish primary one. Fortunately I picked the right school.

Auch Harbinger, I learn something every day and I'm grateful. Life, in some ways, is so much easier for my age group because we do have the internet, although I would like to see many more become involved in it. Too often I hear 'I don't have time' or 'It's for kids'. So many tired and disillusioned people around who don't want to even attempt to find any answers.

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