The Czech President signed the Lisbon Treaty this afternoon. Britain is now governed from Europe and our political representatives are now purely figureheads with the power of parish councillors. (Haven't I heard that said of the Scottish Parliament?)
EU Referendum has also recorded the event. Me? I'm so sad to see the consolidation of a European Superstate when so many generations have fought and died for Britain to make its own laws, have its own powerful governments and care for its people.
There is a solution for the conservatives though. David Cameron, should he become Prime Minister, could immediately grant Scotland a referendum and ensure the tories campaigned in the YES camp. Scotland would gain independence and that would leave England requiring to reapply for membership of the EU and therefore in a position to negotiate terms.
Perhaps Scotland would do the same. Just a thought - I can but dream.
Graphic courtesy of Muffled Vociferation
Posts
42 comments:
Interesting solution. But Cameron's on record as saying he wants to be Prime Minister of the UK not England, unless of course he decides that his word isn't "cast iron"
Still, the break-up of the union is a big step and as far as I know from polls there isn't enough of a majority for it yet (I might be wrong here) But if Scotland wants to go it alone, the majority of the English will wish you good luck (as we think you'll need it) and hope you do well for yourselves.
Sounds like a plan!
Cant wait for tomorrow to hear Cameron try and wriggle out of his cast iron Guarantee(I mean he even signed it)
see he had Hague out tonight as his whipping boy..........
lets be honest Cameron has Bottled it
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/eu_referendum/article273758.ece
his signature
http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00359/SNN2606HN_384_359541a.jpg
As the Union is now the European one rather than the British one will Scotland get her fair share of MEP's?
This sucks is all I have to say.
That's true QM but doesn't he back-pedal on 'cast iron' words?
You're right of course, there isn't or wasn't a majority for independence. Perhaps once the consequences of the Lisbon Treaty come to light more Scots will realise how well they've been duped.
Aye we'll need all the best wishes we can get. :)
Niko I noticed Haig has been sent out to start the excuses.
Thanks for the links, I'll keep those.
Who knows scunnert? I think Westminster will still be the place the EU mandarins want to deal with, sadly.
Don't know if it's a plan Dan but it's possible don't you think?
I can hear many say 'Dream on'. :)
Hah! Fifty years from now, Scotland will unite with The Welsh and English to throw off the yolk of a EUSSR. Bet ya!
Sorry Subrosa, but all this talk about a European 'superstate' is drivel.
The Lisbon Treaty roots Member States ('States' being the operative word) as sovereign international entities within the international community, enhancing core sovereignty whilst expanding the necessary 'constitutional pluralism' that Neil MacCormick so eloquently expounded as an SNP MEP.
Do you seriously believe that France, Germany, Netherlands, Italy or Austria would give up core sovereign decision making for a political pig in a poke?
Time for this country to be in there sitting at the top table maximising Scotland's national interest at the core of Europe rather than England's 'Johnnie Foreigner' echo.
Let's be realistic here. He could also declare the treaty illegal as all the major parties had promised a referendum on it and they failed to give us one.
Truth of the matter is, he wants the EU. I don't trust the Conservatives anymore. Look up on Wiki, how many treaties have been broken? Loads.. they can do what they want literally, but they won't! The EU need us more than we need them. London is one of the financial centres of the world and that won't change. The politicians have lost faith in us, we are a powerful nation in the world.
There are always loopholes to be found.. doesn't take a genius to find one! He could do the honest thing and say he's bound by British Citizens to have a referendum and they are his priority, trouble is, most other countries would follow suit and guess what they'd all vote?
In the last 12 years as we were quietly lured into this police state, who objected on our behalf, f*cking nobody, least of all the Conservatives.
Sod them, time for a new system, out with old and corrupt and in with a new democratic system.
Spot on Sue.
Another way out for Comedy Dave would be to announce the adoption of the Irish Law (where any amendment to the constitution is subject to a referendum) as a manefesto pledge.
Hmmm we'll see.
Sue, the 'EU needs us more then 'we' (who they?) need them' line is based on nothing other than old fashioned English/British nationalism.
It is certainly not the inclusive new Scotland that I have devoted my adult life to since the mid 1970's.
The EU is not perfect by any means but in a world of muscle geo-politics & rampant Corporatism it is the best we have. And an ideal vehicle for Scotland to maximise its influence both on the European & global stage.
We can see right through them. They're pathetic and I wouldn't want them to represent us anyway!
Subrosa, EU Referendum! Such a chore to login to. I don't remember how many times I've registered with that site to make a comment. I never get an activation email to actually get on it.. if you can login, perhaps you would mention it.. I have used up all my email addresses trying to get on, that I have given up!
While I'm not sure your analysis of the result of the EU treaty is correct, it would certainly be one way of handling getting referendums. Unfortunately, I think it's also too straightforward and honest for most politicians.
We'll certainly not be alive to see it then OR. :)
Whilst I respect your opinion TartanSeer, I'm not convinced. France and Germany dominate the EU. The Netherland, Italy and Austria are smaller fry.
Scotland's interests? Scotland's interests will never be represented as the UK refuses to allow Scotland to have a voice.
What about fishing in Scotland? Nearly decimated by Westminster representatives in the EU. Plenty other Scottish matters are also constantly ignored because we don't have a body at the tables.
Yes Sue, I never thought about that. But then, there are so many referenda they promised too over the years.
I would agree Cameron wants the EU, but then I've not really been impressed with Cameron. Not enough, if any, real conviction for me.
How do we organise a new system? A revolution?
There's something else I forgot about Allan, yes that's an idea too.
Tartan Seer, we're of a different opinion. I would prefer Scotland to withdraw from the EU and have a seat on the EC. Then we can decide what is important to our country rather than be told what's important.
Nobody will be any more informed about Scotland than they are already now this Lisbon Treaty is in place.
Sue, I'll mention that next time I comment on EU Ref. Such a shame, they must be losing lots of visitors if it's so bad.
I don't like their comment system but it does work for me.
It probably is Jeanne. We can't have straightforward honest politics now can we? The people might start to take note of what's happening around them.
Exactly the solution if not the political process I put forward a short time ago, Rosie. I have become increasing sceptical about the EU over the last 6 months and now believe that we should be like Norway and Switzerland. After all we have as much oil and natural resources as Norway and as big a financial services sector as Switzerland.
Jings DL I hope you don't think I pinched your policy. :)
The more I've read the more sceptical I too have become and now I firmly believe we should just be EC members.
Leg Iron's done a post on why most politicians want to stay in the EU. It appears the EU gives political parties hard cash. That's something I didn't even know about.
EU superstate? Hardly!
Don't you think it's going that way BoT? Obviously not. What is Britain going to get out of it other than reams of legislation?
Euro funding will now go even more towards its constituent member Regions, of which Scotland is but one; outflanking both Westminster and Edinburgh while our Regional Representatives in Brussels fight like rats in a sack lobbying, at our expense, against each other for Euro funding. Welcome to Divide and Rule.
Does anyone know how the new mechanism for total national withdrawal works ?
Subrosa, I'm not sure I follow your line of argument when you say that you would prefer to see this country withdraw from the EU but have a seat on the EC.
The EC has been effectively replaced by the EU & Scotland will need to decide whether it becomes an integral part of this Union or stuck outside, with a surly England, massively affected by the decisions of the EU but unable to influence them.
It is true that the larger States of the Union have greater influence, but that would be the case regardless, EU or not.
The benefit for smaller countries like Scotland, Austria, Ireland & Denmark, and indeed for the political stability of the continent as a whole, is that member states retain their sovereignty (apart from a commonly agreed pooling of sovereignty for the greater good of all Member's)with the political decision making process rooted in equality for all. Member States will commonly coalesce around issues of importance for their respective countries & cut deals which massively increase the power & de facto sovereignty of the smaller countries.
Compare & contrast to Scotland's position at present, stripped of all sovereignty & dependent on the London government for decisions.
I don’t want Scotland to throw away her independence after a successful referendum by taking the isolationist cul-de-sac favoured by the Euro-sceptics in England, having to react to whatever the English government does in relation to trade, taxation, etc, & having to follow European decisions even if they are masked by frantic flag waving. No, it is time to maximise our Independence & take a proactive & enthusiastic position along with our European friends & neighbours.
I'm possibly out of date Tartan Seer and should have said EEA rather than EC?
It's the pooling of sovereignty for the greater good of all members which troubles me. Who decides what is pooled?
I don't think small countries such as Norway are in the least isolationist. When I read about fishing for example, Norway is always there (although without a vote right enough because they're going to do it their way anyway).
Nor do I think Scotland would benefit much from full membership. It's going to be the small eastern European countries who will benefit in the next few generations.
You're obviously very keen on Scotland being part of the EU and I admire you for your stance, but the only major benefit I see for Scotland from Europe is that the EU provides political stability to the area.
Yesterday I read that the main reason why politicians will not campaign for withdrawal from the EU is because they receive large sums of money - not as individuals but for their respective parties, with the exception of UKIP.
If that is so then it makes the issue much more clear for me in the same way as why no political party will speak out about the farce of a war in Afghanistan. They all sing from the same hymn book on that too.
I have no doubt Scotland will apply to be a full member of the EU TS, none whatsoever, but I do hope it is debated fully before we do. By that time maybe the results of this Lisbon Treaty will be far more evident.
Indeed, Norway is far from isolationist, but a new Scottish State that withdraws from the EU & is therefore far more affected by decisions taken by England, assuming England has pulled out as well, would be seen by the international community as both anti-European & England's 'mini-me' proxy.
As far as the pooling of sovereignty is concerned, the answer is the democratically elected governments of member States decide on the pooling of sovereignty, just as all NATO members 'give up' a degree of sovereignty for common defense.
You state that you do not support 'full' membership - well, there is no choice here between varying classes of membership. Is is a case of either being in or out. Associate membership would still mean accepting core EU policy, the only difference being that Scotland would be locked out of the decision making corridors that Ireland, Estonia, Slovakia et al are fully participating in for their own national interests.
And to believe that 'money from Europe' is muzzling a clamour to withdraw from Europe is, with the greatest respect, straight from the rabid anti-EU brigade who see European conspiracies everywhere, people so blinded by paranoia that a rational discourse is well nigh impossible.
I don't think your linking of the EU with Afghanistan is valid, but I do think you are on the money with regard to the Afghanistan farce & the 'we're stopping terrorism on UK streets' line used by all parties, including, I'm afraid to say, the SNP.
Tartan Seer, can I respond later. I've to dash out now because it's my evening of trying to beat pairs of card sharps.
Good luck!
Why would Scotland be seen as anti-Europe if the Scots decided they didn't want to be in Europe?
Is what David Cameron is promising, negotiating certain areas of the Lisbon Treaty, all lies?
We've lost billions in income to other European countries due to the EU fisheries policy. Is that the type of thing of which you approve?
I'm presently listening to Question Time and the politicians on the panel are all saying only a few people want a referendum on Europe. How arrogant.
Oh I do think my link with Afghanistan is valid as Nato is part of the reason our armed forces are there.
Do you honestly think we're an equal in Europe when germany only has half the amount of troops we have there, plus it also stipulates that their troops are not to be sent to the front line?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/25/world/europe/25german.html
Do you understand why the people are angry with Europe and Nato when every other country, aside from the US and Britain, have given a withdrawal date?
At present at the vast majority of Europeans see Scotland as an English territory. Come Scottish independence, and a Scottish govt deciding to remain out of the third biggest political bloc on the planet, I can just see a wave of a German or French hand dismising Scotland's decision as one essentially taken by the puppet masters in London.
What possible maximisation of national interest would be served by removing yourself from the decision making locus for the mirage of 'independent' decision making outside of the EU? I'm sorry Subrosa, but it is naive & at odds with political & economic realities.
And no, I don't approve of the fishing policy, a classic example where an independent Scotland in Europe could have made a real difference (as I posted yesterday in relation to Ireland). All the more reason to be in Europe in the future to protect Scottish interests.
You linked Afghanistan to the EU, which I notice you are now widening out to NATO. NATO & the EU are not one & the same, although I do agree that there are questions regarding NATO's role in Af-Pak.
Being equal in Europe has nothing to do with troops in Afghanistan - indeed this demonstrates the fallacy behind the 'EU Superstate' crowd, as it the national sovereignty of the EU's constituent nations, like Germany, that enables them to take decisions according to their own national interests.
Oh that Scotland had the power to do as the German government has done or set a withdrawal date!
Nothing to do with the nasty ol' EU Subrosa.
Tartan Seer, have a wee preview of one of my SSS blogs for Saturday.
http://captainranty.blogspot.com/
Another blogger I respect has this to say TartanSeer:
http://leg-iron.livejournal.com/250522.html
Subrosa, these guys are regurgitating all the usual lame canards of the 'get UK out of Europe'position, which although strongly held doesn't make them the right thing for the UK, or, far more importantly, this country.
Sure, Scotland could remain out of the EU but that doesn't mean we can have our cake and eat it.
We would still have to follow EU rules & obligations, just as Norway & Switzerland does at present, but with no Scottish minister 'in Europe' able to shape legislation. The same would go for regulation which could have a massively negative effect on Scottish business.
Indeed, Scotland would be treated no differently from the US or Japan, & would have to face the same tariff hurdles.
This is a political self indulgence the Scottish people can well do without.
Rather than the paranoid ravings of the Euro sceptics on alleged corruption, cost & liberties, folk would be better advised to focus on the home grown threats to these (ID cards, BAE corruption, fat cattery in the City, etc).
If the EU is such a drain on the tax payer, such a threat to liberty, such a totalitarian monster out to snuff out Europe's nations, then why have 27 nations signed up to it? Are they all blind to 'reality'? Or is the UK the only State uniquely under attack?
And we haven't even started on the close EU action required to tackle climate change, managed immigration & human rights.
Having our cake and eating it isn't what a modern Scotland wants or needs TS. Of course we would have to follow certain rules and obligations and I would find that acceptable.
Not having a Scottish minister would be fine with me. We'd be able to look after our own country without having to have the consent of another 26 before we could do anything.
Tariff hurdles? I shouldn't think they would be any worse than at present. I read about the enormous sums of money the UK give the EU and what little we receive in return. Then again of course, the political parties get their wee top up. :)
Home grown threats such as ID cards? That's a UK policy and the Scottish government has voted against it. The other things you name are also UK matters.
Many of the 27 nations are poor countries. Of course they would sign up to it. Wouldn't you if you saw a gravy train passing by the end of your garden?
As for climate change, which I don't believe in, managed immigration and human rights, these are things which need to be discussed now before a referendum not after.
Where do I start?
Subrosa, you say that you would find accepting 'certain' rules & obligations as acceptable. The point is, in the EU there is no cherry picking, for the obvious reason that the corollary would be sclerotic deadlock. As I said, we cannot have our cake & eat it.
You state that nor having a minister in the EU would "be fine" as we would be able to look after our own country ..... yes, true, but our government wouldn't have real decision making or influence as I have laid out in my previous posts. We would in reality be following the other 25, reacting not leading, thin gruel & a lock on Scotland's economic & social potential.
And yes, ID cards is a London policy, but a consequence of the English Union & nothing to do with the EU, which the web links you gave me would have us believe.
As for many of the 27 nations being poor countries ... really ... Austria? Netherlands? Sweden? Denmark? Malta? If they are as poor as you say, who is paying for them? Just old Blighty? Crazy nonsense. So who else? And why?
You are wrong on tariff hurdles .. there are NONE within the EU, but there would be outside. How do you think that would hit Scotland's financial hub? Frankfurt would be delighted.
We can debate climate change - although it is interesting that most of the anti-EU people I know are also vociferous in their denial of overwhelming scientific evidence - but immigration & human rights are at the core of the EU project, issues that require concerted action on a transnational basis if action is to be effective. Issues discussed & decided by sovereign EU governments & then implemented, biggest bang for the buck, by the member states.
TS I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the EU. You name 5 of the other small countries which are very obviously not poor. What about the new eastern ones?
As for the HRA that's another story. I strongly feel it should be redrafted. It leans far too much towards the criminal rather than the victim.
Are you going to deny there are plans for an EU military too?
Thanks for the argument though, it has been enjoyable.
Aye, I think we've been roon the hooses on this one.
Until the next time Subrosa!
Tartan Seer
Thanks for the debate Tartan Seer. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Made me think about my prejudices too. :)
Post a Comment