tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post891641035363380280..comments2023-08-10T12:55:23.427+01:00Comments on SUBROSA: Scotland - The Future And The Pastsubrosahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-28015233442977618952011-05-31T00:05:33.572+01:002011-05-31T00:05:33.572+01:00That's true sizzy but there's lots of prot...That's true sizzy but there's lots of protest about singling out these drinks. Some say the EU will have something to say.<br /><br />We'll just have to wait and see, but when it comes on the statute book, supermarkets will increase the price of all alcohol I bet.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-42834278832593294922011-05-31T00:03:51.565+01:002011-05-31T00:03:51.565+01:00Auch I'm sure Heid the Ba' would give it h...Auch I'm sure Heid the Ba' would give it his best shot Jo.<br /><br />You listening RM?subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-83039193230324345682011-05-30T22:43:27.790+01:002011-05-30T22:43:27.790+01:00As far as I can remember, Alex Salmond stated that...As far as I can remember, Alex Salmond stated that he wanted to tax low quality - high strength drinks.sizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15316277460620750442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-47824298178414623712011-05-30T22:04:16.557+01:002011-05-30T22:04:16.557+01:00I'm up for that Subrosa, I'll see what I c...I'm up for that Subrosa, I'll see what I can put together. Not sure what Heid the Ba' would make of a joint effort or how we would work that but I'll have a think.Jo Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536467440869239587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-16032317108829793462011-05-30T20:50:22.796+01:002011-05-30T20:50:22.796+01:00The two of you, Jo and RM are quite right here. R...The two of you, Jo and RM are quite right here. RM says it's down to family values and you Jo say we're past that - which is exceptionally sad but perhaps true.<br /><br />If you'd like a debate about it email me with something and I'll post it, in your name, as a guest post. Could be a very interesting one indeed.<br /><br />Why not do a joint one along the lines of pros and cons? Maybe I'm overstepping the realms of reality. :)subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-17842056295353315642011-05-30T19:53:49.025+01:002011-05-30T19:53:49.025+01:00RMcG, every community in Scotland and throughout t...RMcG, every community in Scotland and throughout the UK is seeing disturbing problems through alcohol abuse. These are Scottish born, English born, Welsh born people not immigrants. We shouldn't play this down. <br /><br />On rolling back the break up of the family unit RMcG I'm not sure we can. I think its gone too far. I think it started pre-Blair as well, honestly. I know of families who are into the third generation of no fathers in sight. I don't mean cases where marriages broke down: I mean where there was never a father around to begin with. It has become a culture in some places. That's a debate on its own. Maybe Subrosa will arrange that. I'm sure it would be interesting. <br /><br />No point in us continuing to disagree over the pricing thing. I think tho that its established that while every other commodity has increased in price over the decades alcohol is definitely now cheaper than it was twenty years ago and I think that's bizarre.Jo Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536467440869239587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-75059145660039769382011-05-30T15:57:04.681+01:002011-05-30T15:57:04.681+01:00Jo.
There is evidence that some immigrants from Ea...Jo.<br />There is evidence that some immigrants from Eastern Europe are raising the figures for alcohol abuse..<br /><br />http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/aug/12/homeless-poles-rough-sleepers<br /><br />http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/care-and-support/drink-warning-for-homeless-migrants/6512447.article<br /><br /><br />http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2106977.ece<br /><br />Although I accept that we need to get back to basics in Scotland and encourage the family and roll back the break up of the family unit via Blairs social engineering. Tinkering with alcohol pricing is a cop out.RMcGeddonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01665173796157838927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-40456074850736330272011-05-30T14:42:14.401+01:002011-05-30T14:42:14.401+01:00RMcG I'm not buying the immigrants thing. We ...RMcG I'm not buying the immigrants thing. We can't blame them for things we know ordinary Scots are doing in relation to alcohol and the quantities being consumed regularly. (Although you're right about the TB matter.)Jo Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536467440869239587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-67143862580692353382011-05-30T14:29:59.973+01:002011-05-30T14:29:59.973+01:00Heck SR I'm not made of money ;)
Thinking abo...Heck SR I'm not made of money ;)<br /><br />Thinking about this minimum pricing policy for alcohol do you not think it's like putting a sticking plaster onto a decapitated head ?<br />The collapse in society and family values via Blair and Harperson etc has made the problem too big to fix.RMcGeddonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01665173796157838927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-7034427718713235112011-05-30T12:42:23.034+01:002011-05-30T12:42:23.034+01:00Jo.
leg iron would argue that nicotine isn't a...Jo.<br />leg iron would argue that nicotine isn't an addiction. You've been programmed to think it is. I think it's an addiction but many don't.<br />I could give you links that would counter your links about drinking but we'd end up swapping links back and forwards. Sweden has amongst the highest alcohol prices in the world yet there has been no reduction in binge drinking. Poland has about the lowest alcohol prices in the world yet there's never any trouble as the police carry out the powers that they've been given.<br />The increase in liver deaths in the UK was attributed to the extra 3 million Eastern Europeans who have settled in the UK since the open borders policy was adopted. These are hardened vodka drinkers who have a history of early death through alcohol abuse. Much the same as the massive increase in heart failure in the population due to the immigrants from Asia. And the massive increase in TB due to the immigrants from Africa. The demographics of the UK have changed so rapidly in the last 20 years that any studies that look at historical trends in deaths are meaningless. <br />You will have to stop smoking though before I take you for that drink. I'm a boring anti smoker and hate the smell of it. It gets everywhere.RMcGeddonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01665173796157838927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-76647212667472664602011-05-30T12:40:45.373+01:002011-05-30T12:40:45.373+01:00RM, you cheapskate. Jo deserves at least a bottle ...RM, you cheapskate. Jo deserves at least a bottle of something special.<br /><br />Thinking about it, I'll forego wine and just have a bottle of Allure. :)subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-17628085974567276292011-05-30T12:39:09.558+01:002011-05-30T12:39:09.558+01:00Jo, I meant to delete the bit about no booze in my...Jo, I meant to delete the bit about no booze in my childhood home as there was always sherry and whisky. That didn't turn my parents into alcoholics (although my mother liked a bucketful now and again). My father, owing to his work, seldom touched the stuff and preferred a pint down the pub with friends.<br /><br />Women didn't go to pubs in those days and I certainly wouldn't go to any of my local pubs. They're dives. We're behind the times here.<br /><br />I see RM's view too though because I know youngsters who already buy 'vodka' from a source which isn't a recognised retail outlet. This will increase when retail prices increase and there will always be the blackmarket which will be able to provide cheaper. Same with tobacco. I could buy my cigarettes much cheaper but I'm sceptical about the source.<br /><br />Remember beer wasn't expensive when we were young, it was only the middle-upper range of drinks. Wine wasn't drunk much in this country then and folk who liked wine made it themselves. My grandmother made bathfulls of elderberry, parsnip and rhubarb wine and any other fruit she could lay her hands on. There was always the lovely smell of processing because the vats sat beside the range. She gave most of it away as gifts but she also had one whole side of her larder stocked with the stuff.<br /><br />I preferred the parsnip. :)<br /><br />I don't think increasing the price will make a blind bit of difference to youngsters who are hell bent on getting drunk. Let's not forget, many have quite a few drinks before they even reach the streets. We occasionally used to share a half bottle of gin before we went dancing. That was between around 10 of us. The measure was the cap. The boys would do the same with whisky.<br /><br />It's all about priorities and today's youngsters think that a drunken night out is more important than saving towards their future. There were no credit cards in our day so we had to save for the new dress or record or whatever.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-61366005401572056932011-05-30T12:06:54.068+01:002011-05-30T12:06:54.068+01:00http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/20...http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/10/05/supermarkets-selling-alcohol-for-cheaper-than-25-years-ago-78057-20774133/<br /><br />On a light note in the link above the spokesman for Alcohol Concern was quoted. His name? Mr Sodden.<br /><br />http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1350302/Number-30s-liver-disease-soars-50-decade.html<br /><br />I never like quoting the Daily Mail however this article is about findings within the medical profession on liver-related disease normally found in much older people which is now showing up in people in their 30s. It also stresses the increased dangers alcohol presents for women because we aren't able to cope with levels of alcohol men can deal with yet we're giving it our best shot (pardon the pun). It also rightly says that minimum prices are not the whole answer but makes the point that dirt cheap booze is definitely a significant factor in encouraging us to drink more.Jo Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536467440869239587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-7925342869002702142011-05-30T11:40:32.491+01:002011-05-30T11:40:32.491+01:00Oddly enough my worst times for smoking are when I...Oddly enough my worst times for smoking are when I'm on the computer!Jo Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536467440869239587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-20688133863524228622011-05-30T11:39:36.753+01:002011-05-30T11:39:36.753+01:00RMcG
"The 'experts' said that nicoti...RMcG<br /><br />"The 'experts' said that nicotine was more addictive than heroin so how can making cigarettes dearer help to curb smoking."<br /><br />We're on two different subjects here and that's why I've pasted that particular comment because I think I've been misunderstood. <br /><br />As a smoker myself I have long resented that while governments scolded that I was "costing the NHS a fortune" the likes of me were keeping the NHS going by contributing 85% of every packet of fags to the treasury. There was evidence at one time that if every smoker packed it in they would need to add at least 5p to the basic income tax rate to recoup their losses. In the old days they'd put 2p on a packet of fags at the budget, then it was 4p then it was 10p. The last one was 20p. Real problem cases like me are still enslaved to nicotine but I am determined now to beat it because RMcG I am sick of my habit dominating my life and my finances. <br /><br />I am glad however that I know so many people who took on board the dangers and beat cigarettes, and nicotine. That gives me hope. My own parents were in that number and they both were non smokers for nearly ten years. They didn't stop, and many others didn't either, because of costs: the reasons were the emerging evidence of the serious health dangers. <br /><br />I think the experts are right that nicotine is addictive because I know it is true and its why every battle with it, for me, so far has been lost. <br /><br />I also think it is wrong to compare the ordinary current drinker with a nicotine addict or an alcoholic. The average drinker isn't an alcoholic or addicted to a substance like nicotine. They won't feel the pain of drinking less in clubs and pubs: they may just curb it and see how much more enjoyable nights out are without being unable to walk at the end of them. <br /><br />Our attitude to booze has to change. I keep saying that minimum pricing isn't the whole answer because it isn't. But I will keep saying that booze prices now are curiously low in comparison with years ago and that is difficult to fathom.Jo Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536467440869239587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-24809642275842394542011-05-30T11:39:22.610+01:002011-05-30T11:39:22.610+01:00Jo
I've got a lovely Shiraz here that would be...Jo<br />I've got a lovely Shiraz here that would be perfect for you. It's been on special offer at my local co op. Booze is cheap as chips these days.<br />Not as cheap as water though ;)RMcGeddonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01665173796157838927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-69936628168521295032011-05-30T11:23:36.661+01:002011-05-30T11:23:36.661+01:00RMcG, if you want to engage try and treat my contr...RMcG, if you want to engage try and treat my contributions as simply that and don't describe them as me "going off on one". <br /><br />Its red wine here thanks, but a quality red, none of that cheap rubbish. : )Jo Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536467440869239587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-72682127618547108852011-05-30T11:21:55.146+01:002011-05-30T11:21:55.146+01:00Subrosa
"If we could get to the bottom of wh...Subrosa<br /><br />"If we could get to the bottom of why so many feel the need to get drunk then we could resolve the issue."<br /><br />"There's always booze in this house and yes, there wasn't in my childhood home because it was too expensive." <br /><br />I think those two statements connect brilliantly and also provide the answer. <br /><br />It was the same in my own home when growing up. But apart from the expense part it also wasn't generally the thing to have booze in the house anyway. When people came to visit the men went for a pint and the women stayed at home and blethered over cups of tea and biscuits. My mum and dad went out to dances now and then but I rarely remember mum going with him to the pub. There is now more concern about the amounts of alcohol being consumed particularly by women. <br /><br />But the expense connection you made is relevant because now booze is dirt cheap, not from dodgey sources, but from supermarkets and pubs doing promotions. Truly the price of alcohol has dropped in relation to everything else. I find that bizarre. I'm trying to find a report I saw referred to the other day of a study done which proved that booze is cheaper now than it was in the 1980s.Jo Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536467440869239587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-57997822719151117212011-05-30T11:18:10.951+01:002011-05-30T11:18:10.951+01:00Jo.
Heck I even offered to buy you a pint to make ...Jo.<br />Heck I even offered to buy you a pint to make up for my rudeness and you go off on one again.<br />The 'experts' said that nicotine was more addictive than heroin so how can making cigarettes dearer help to curb smoking ? Heroin addicts don't say ' I'm gonna knock this heroin addiction on the head as it's just getting too expensive'. No, they just steal more and degrade themselves more to get the money. This will happen with alcohol. Drunks don't stop because alcohol gets dearer. They just steal more and do whatever is required to get the booze. Going without food if needs be.<br />But we are where we are.<br />The SNP have a majority so the alcohol legislation will go through.<br />Local shops, pubs, clubs and individuals will source their alcohol from over the border creating a flourishing market like in Calais. Special offers will be advertised in the national press at the new alcohol warehouses in Carlisle etc.<br />White van man will drive around schemes selling alcohol to kids direct. Hotlines will be set up to deliver straight to people's houses. As the minimum price creeps up the profits to be made will increase proportionally. Off licences in Scotland will fold due to the competition. Like cigarettes the majority of alcohol sold on the streets will be counterfeit.<br />Meanwhile in Europe, Scotland will spend time in court cases as it defends itself against charges of breaking the EU free trade treaties. Being an EU loving party it will back off and do a face saving about turn and scrap the legislation. In the meantime mafia gangs will have wrecked our schemes with kids hooked on other highs apart from alcohol.<br />And I bet you a pint this scenario will happen.RMcGeddonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01665173796157838927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-23181839177412300462011-05-30T10:45:08.857+01:002011-05-30T10:45:08.857+01:00RMcG, there you go again, saying things I did NOT ...RMcG, there you go again, saying things I did NOT say.<br /><br />I said, rightly, that smoking levels had dropped steadily since we became aware of the dangers. That is absolutely true. I even gave you a link to national statistics to prove it.<br /><br />I pointed out there had been a huge learning curve about smoking which led to many giving up. <br /><br />Nicotine is one of the most powerfully addictive drugs ever. I'm currently reading Allen Carr's book on stopping smoking. He managed to beat it and helped many others to do so too may he rest in peace. <br /><br />On the e-cigarettes Subrosa the Docs I spoke to are relatives who had read, as I did, of the downside to those. Seems there is a downside to everything. <br /><br />Anyway, my views are my views. Its a shame RMcG that you're still misquoting them all over the place and utterly misunderstanding what I'm saying. <br /><br />Minimum pricing is not the whole answer but it would help to get rid of the people, in supermarkets and in various bars and clubs, who are actively encouraging people, especially young people, to consume as much alcohol as they can within a few hours because its dirt cheap. It is also highly dangerous but they don't say that do they? So for me it is not about "taxes" it is about responsible pricing.Jo Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536467440869239587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-36334178782333844352011-05-30T03:58:38.697+01:002011-05-30T03:58:38.697+01:00RM, Jo will cope with what LI says, I promise. In...RM, Jo will cope with what LI says, I promise. In fact, if she smokes and wants to stop then his philosophy will do her good. :)<br /><br />I'll give her one bit of advice though - don't mention more tax on alcohol to him. :)subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-35872146403837941222011-05-30T02:33:01.804+01:002011-05-30T02:33:01.804+01:00SR..
You've just reinforced what I was saying....SR..<br />You've just reinforced what I was saying. People are turning to contraband tobacco and alcohol as people like Jo ask for more taxes.<br />These cigarettes are totally unregulated and contain sawdust and any stoor off of the floor in the flat where the tobacco is packaged.<br />The same will happen with alcohol when Jo gets her wish and poor people can no longer afford to buy regulated alcohol due to higher taxes. Blindness and other ailments are guaranteed as people buy from local dealers.<br />Are you sure you want to direct Jo towards leggy ?<br />Jo thinks nicotine is an addiction. Leggy has writen ad nauseum for years that it's not. And once Jo tells leggy she wants to increase duty on alcohol aswell then she'll be mincemeat.RMcGeddonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01665173796157838927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-7437202909890064992011-05-30T02:21:11.118+01:002011-05-30T02:21:11.118+01:00Jo, I suggest you try an ecigarette and buy the no...Jo, I suggest you try an ecigarette and buy the non-nicotine capsules for it. Ask underdogs bite upwards the best one to buy, he's an expert. I quite like mine and it's halved my smoking. It's also quite a talking piece when I'm out. They're far less harmful than cigarettes. Of course doctors don't officially recommend them because they have to support the big pharma which continues to peddle nicotine products.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-46245834813399486232011-05-30T02:17:32.684+01:002011-05-30T02:17:32.684+01:00Hi Jo, aye I think RM kind of contradicted himself...Hi Jo, aye I think RM kind of contradicted himself with that statement really because I see where you're coming from.<br /><br />Jo, see my reply to RM about youngsters now buying suspect alcohol and tobacco. This is only beginning here and if prices increase it will get worse.<br /><br />If we could get to the bottom of why so many feel the need to get drunk then we could resolve the issue.<br /><br />I certainly agree the supermarkets should stop the BOGOFs and bars shouldn't be running 'specials' either.<br /><br />There's always booze in this house and yes, there wasn't in my childhood home because it was too expensive - although I think there was always a bottle of Bristol Cream and a bottle of Bells or Teachers.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-79290636599015217302011-05-30T02:12:11.742+01:002011-05-30T02:12:11.742+01:00RM, I don't think Jo's confused in the lea...RM, I don't think Jo's confused in the least. I think she has another view to which she's entitled. :)<br /><br />That's what's happening here. Youngsters are now buying contraband cigarettes and bottles of who-knows-what from who-know- where. It's only the beginning.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.com