tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post8755779163070025889..comments2023-08-10T12:55:23.427+01:00Comments on SUBROSA: Lessons Are Never Learnedsubrosahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-15899465941201342222011-02-08T17:19:53.654+00:002011-02-08T17:19:53.654+00:00I read this one again because it is a good example...I read this one again because it is a good example of the 'chaos' in many of our institutions.<br /><br />- AangirfanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-19369603143527765832010-08-09T00:55:33.092+01:002010-08-09T00:55:33.092+01:00Thanks for the link Dram. What a fool the man is....Thanks for the link Dram. What a fool the man is. He doesn't seem to realise the schools are on holiday so it wouldn't have made an iota of difference.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-45497184703278485642010-08-08T23:09:22.268+01:002010-08-08T23:09:22.268+01:00Hello, I see the guys on newsnet are on the case, ...Hello, I see the guys on newsnet are on the case, this should be good.<br /><br />http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=451:outrage-as-labour-msp-uses-child-deaths-to-attack-snp&catid=6:leisure&Itemid=9Dramfinedayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15317798317549135378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-61130474404183149942010-08-08T22:01:50.160+01:002010-08-08T22:01:50.160+01:00Thanks for your comment. I did find Duncan McNeil...Thanks for your comment. I did find Duncan McNeil quite out of order.<br /><br />Over the past 24 hours many questions regarding home education have popped into my mind, but as I know it will not be a choice of my close family, then I won't be seeking answers.<br /><br />A few words of advice. Guidelines are only that. Governments change.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-88377549165770650282010-08-08T21:57:50.649+01:002010-08-08T21:57:50.649+01:00"Thanks for allowing us to comment on your po..."Thanks for allowing us to comment on your post. We are generally denied any platform in the MSM, a bit like those who support Scottish independence. It must be all that dangerous self determination!"<br /><br />Well said Alison!Dramfinedayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15317798317549135378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-2074163270474750582010-08-08T17:51:44.356+01:002010-08-08T17:51:44.356+01:00The Scottish home ed charity Schoolhouse has issue...The Scottish home ed charity Schoolhouse has issued a press release following the disgusting remarks made by Labour MSP Duncan McNeii, who has been given a platform to tell a pack of lies. See http://www.schoolhouse.org.uk/media/press-releases<br /><br />I cannot tell you how distressed members of the home ed community, including children who have been bullied out of schools, are over this poison. Perhaps you will understand why some of us are uber sensitive about the ongoing attacks. As Sheila has pointed out, it is all part of the toxic agenda that comes from Lisbon, nothing to do with protecting chidren.<br /><br />Mike Russell has an understanding of home education and the SNP has always played fair and upheld the law. There is perfectly good statutory guidance which allows for LA intervention where required and you might be surprised at the supportive community we have here in Scotland (and probably how many of them are teachers!)<br /><br />Thanks for allowing us to comment on your post. We are generally denied any platform in the MSM, a bit like those who support Scottish independence. It must be all that dangerous self determination!Millie Craigohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04689844988988993461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-44214119282674414222010-08-08T16:41:18.568+01:002010-08-08T16:41:18.568+01:00Thanks for that Dram. After yesterday and the inf...Thanks for that Dram. After yesterday and the information I gained about home educators, I'm surprised there aren't laws to help these people rather than the wooly guideline system.<br /><br />Then again, maybe laws aren't the answer but certainly someone ought to be making a public stance against any negativity pointed at them. Sometimes it takes more than a few letters to politicians etc.<br /><br />I was speaking to someone today who had read the post comments and they said the OU was home education albeit for adults. Hadn't thought about it in that way.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-76177653034546352982010-08-08T13:09:56.634+01:002010-08-08T13:09:56.634+01:00Good Afternoon SR. No doubt you'll have seen t...Good Afternoon SR. No doubt you'll have seen the Healine in the Sunday Post - "SNP fury over Labour home schooling slur". Once again the politburo raises its ugly head demanding more interferance. For you home educators you may want to read this and direct some well chosen remarks in the direction of one Duncan McNeil (LABOUR). While Mike Russell (SNP education secretary) gave a robust positive response but you may want to give the SNP gov your views on the subject. Better to be in the tent etc. Non Scots readers of this blog can get the Sunday post at http://www.sundaypost.com/postindex.htm and D McNeil can be chivvied at: http://www.duncanmcneil.com/Dramfinedayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15317798317549135378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-68256980477555586242010-08-08T10:41:31.327+01:002010-08-08T10:41:31.327+01:00That's ok Alison, happens to me too.
I just c...That's ok Alison, happens to me too.<br /><br />I just can't find any link about Scottish Education law concerning Churchill, but I'm not the best googler in the world so I'll keep trying.<br /><br />My home educated friend is now dead but she sent her own two children to private education both in England and when she returned to Scotland. Strangely we never discussed why but I do know she sacrificed a great deal to do it and she researched (at least the Scottish schools) well.<br /><br />When I was in primary we had one pupil with long term illness. Now I don't profess to know anything about the system or policy, but she was home educated because she was unable to leave her home. As her pals we were on what seemed to be an unofficial rota to take Ann books etc and a home tutor visited twice a week I think. This went on for a couple of years and she never returned to school as her family moved abroad. <br /><br />Auch vegetarians were around even in the 60s, it's just it didn't seem important if you didn't eat meat. It only became fashionable when the Righteous insisted that it was healthier not to eat poultry, fish, dairy products etc. My generation fortunately haven't suffered because of it but I wonder what health problems will be seen in the Vegetarian generation when they become older.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-37155680896334223592010-08-08T09:32:06.858+01:002010-08-08T09:32:06.858+01:00Too much speed makes for carelessness, sorry.
The...Too much speed makes for carelessness, sorry. <br />The 1944 Ed Act (E&W) included the "or otherwise" clause at the behest of Churchill (no link for this, I'm afraid, as it was in a book). The ensuing Scottish Ed Act of 1945 incorporated "or by other means", mirroring the provision within the '44 Act for education outwith school, so the Churchill connection is indirect but of some interest I believe. <br />What became of your home educated friend, by the way? It was made very difficult back then when Joy Baker was blazing the trail south of the border, although I did know of children educated at home in Scotland in the 60s, almost all due to illness. Vegetarians were still unheard of in rural Angus back then, though.Millie Craigohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04689844988988993461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-73468872674202335432010-08-07T20:57:53.066+01:002010-08-07T20:57:53.066+01:00I've read your link and the reference to Churc...I've read your link and the reference to Churchill Alison. It doesn't state Churchill was responsible for changing the education laws in Scotland.<br /><br />' I now see that Churchill was right. With a clarity perhaps assisted by never having been to university, he understood that education is one of those things - such as virtue, family, or faith - much too important to be controlled by politicians. In his time, schools were run by churches and by local education authorities; universities were run by themselves.<br />It was far from ideal, but at least no single power prevailed, and those in charge knew what they were talking about.'<br /><br />There is nothing there that state Churchill changed Scottish law.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-2040292348700004702010-08-07T20:56:18.976+01:002010-08-07T20:56:18.976+01:00Subrosa, as someone who often disagrees with you, ...Subrosa, as someone who often disagrees with you, may I say this time that I agree wholeheartedly with your main point.<br /><br />In these days of instant communication, it beggars belief that one agency has to use fax, snail mail, or carrier pigeon to talk to another.<br />Dropping the sarcasm, I think these officials must have known, but they hadn't been "officially" informed.<br /><br />I wish you hadn't backtracked about home education. It is a terrible thing to inflict that on children, depriving them of contact with the rest of Jock Tamson's bairns.<br />And obviously, it is only an option for the rich.<br />Worse than that, such parents never entertain the possibility that their offspring are cleverer than they are. Which means that they hold them back.Hamishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07401451754373118599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-85784404955265319402010-08-07T19:53:50.438+01:002010-08-07T19:53:50.438+01:00Dram, what can I say except what a constructive co...Dram, what can I say except what a constructive comment and I do hope those readers who have an interest in home education appreciate it too.<br /><br />Thank you.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-39090865814724363232010-08-07T19:44:28.134+01:002010-08-07T19:44:28.134+01:00Yes Alison I know that but back then home educatio...Yes Alison I know that but back then home education was monitored. I know this because I had a friend who was home educated back in the 50s and her mother, on occasion, used to mention the monitor was coming in the morning.<br /><br />I haven't criticised home monitoring, only mentioned it. I've done everything I can to explain that yet people who have an interest in the subject insist I'm speaking out of turn.<br /><br />After having spent a considerable time today trying to reason with them, I realise it's futile. They're intent on the fact that I am criticising home education and ignore all the endless responses I've made today.<br /><br />That's their choice. Same as it is the choice of parents to educate their children through the state or private sector.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-23874516713666288962010-08-07T19:27:47.751+01:002010-08-07T19:27:47.751+01:00Wow SR, you certainly lit the blue touch paper wit...Wow SR, you certainly lit the blue touch paper with this one! The debate it triggered was fascinating as I had no idea a) so many people were home educators b) that the last politburo (sorry labour government) were into them with the boots – as they were to us with all their daft control freak ideas. Judging by the reaction to your comments, straws and camels apply and you took a few well aimed broadsides (that perhaps had been stored up for more deserving cases). Fair do’s, people obviously have been massively frustrated and tense but, in my view, you made an honourable recovery. <br />Which leads into my response to this article. Living in “nearly tram city”, not all that far from where the event took place, I have conversed with quite a number of my neighbours and friends on the subject. The first sympathy was for the children and their foreshortened lives, “the poor bairns”. The second sympathy was for the mother. Generally the thoughts were that the spring in her mind had snapped because of the stress related to the divorce and the associated legal and court activity. A few people actually suggested that the person who tried to catch her would have done her a kindness by letting her drop straight to the ground (a bit of after even analysis given that at the time this good Samaritan would not have known of her role in the events) as it now appears she will have to live with the knowledge of what she has done. Interestingly, the father only got one mention with the suggestion that money would be at the back of it (what does that say for a fathers role in life I wonder?).<br />Now, regarding new technology and its uses in the courts and supporting organisations. It would appear to us laypersons that if I can go onto a blog and blast away as per here, it should be easy enough to do that in any court operation – email nae bother. By and large it should be (and probably is). But remember not to make the assumption that just because we can do it, the legal system and its infrastructure are capable or indeed are allowed to do the same. It’ll depend, no doubt on the necessary procedures and policies being in place, and a human comprehension about what is urgent and what is not. I was fascinated by Edinburgh Council’s very quick, “it wasnae us gov honest” response.<br />Lessons to be learned – yep (again) and tonight, of the survivors, a mother broken, a father bereft, both their families in the hell of grief and a number of individuals in this country wondering “what if I had......could it have saved them”? We ask a lot of ordinary mortals, don’t we?Dramfinedayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15317798317549135378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-43593533159793578322010-08-07T18:51:20.301+01:002010-08-07T18:51:20.301+01:00The law has included the option to educate "b...The law has included the option to educate "by other means" (in Scotland) since 1944 (when Churchill insisted on there being an alternative to school which he had hated). <br /><br />This post may be of interest: http://www.home-education.biz/blog/education/beware-of-the-flowersMillie Craigohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04689844988988993461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-32009732945819476692010-08-07T14:33:42.654+01:002010-08-07T14:33:42.654+01:00Of course nobody is perfect foodanddrinkglasgow. ...Of course nobody is perfect foodanddrinkglasgow. But, with the money now spent on our public services these days are they any better than they were 40 years ago? As Elaine said, in another context, has society improved? Are we safer?<br /><br />The nationality of the parents is of public interest. Don't you think when a Scot dies on holiday abroad for example, that the word Scot attracts the attention of those with an interest in Scotland?<br /><br />Lothian and Borders police judged the children to be safe and well in their opinion. I'm suggesting a specialist child care social worker maybe should also be in attendance when children are involved.<br /><br />From experience, (no children were involved), the police find the person(s), ask them if they're fine, tell them who has reported them missing, ask them if they want the concerned person told where they are and leave. The whole process took less than 10 minutes.<br /><br />The MSM say the husband became concerned for the welfare of the children after speaking to his wife on the telephone. That was Tuesday. He relayed his concerns to his lawyer who told the judge at the hearing.<br /><br />Yes there is a point to highlighting fax. In private business these days faxes are only used for specific purposes as they're time consuming. <br /><br />Why would nobody see an email? If they can see a fax surely they can read an email? A phone call was made to social work if you believe the Record's article.<br /><br />Check the MSM on the story. It's reported in several articles that the police weren't told of the order.<br /><br />I don't know where you were brought up foodanddrink, but I assure you none of my peers were down the pits/selling matchsticks. That's tosh.<br /><br />I've said this several times in comment about this post. My anger is directed at the agencies involved here. I'm sick of hearing about 'lessons will be learned'. They never are.<br /><br />Read Sheila's links. They may enlighten you as the couple I've read so far have me.<br /><br />Thanks for the compliment although I wouldn't say my arguments are of a high standard. They are my opinion and mine alone. The high standard is attributable to the commenters.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-68111758577857053232010-08-07T14:15:45.791+01:002010-08-07T14:15:45.791+01:00Sheila, thank you for taking the trouble to list t...Sheila, thank you for taking the trouble to list these links. A couple of them ring bells (the older ones) but I shall study them all when I have time. I've spent too much time here this morning and must attend to neglected work for now.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-54330026218042270722010-08-07T14:14:15.431+01:002010-08-07T14:14:15.431+01:00No Tech, I haven't 'expressly' said th...No Tech, I haven't 'expressly' said these things don't happen; quite the contrary:<br /><br />'I very much doubt if home educated children are high on the list' (of malicious referrals.<br /><br />I don't do subtle Tech. In my responses to you both I've apologised, I've also updated my post and apologised with an explanation. I have done the very best I can to discuss a subject of which my knowledge is dated (and I've apologised for that).<br /><br />If you wish to read between the lines then that's your prerogative.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-3545335505923996272010-08-07T13:32:30.823+01:002010-08-07T13:32:30.823+01:00You know, I am angry, but I'm not trying to pi...You know, I am angry, but I'm not trying to pillory you. Whilst it is true that you haven't expressly said these things don't happen, the subtle hint that you don't quite believe that they do is there in the way you have phrased responses to both myself and Elaine. No doubt you will take issue with my perception of these subtexts though, so I will now retire from this debate.Techhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05168914848999240658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-91863947136574124162010-08-07T13:22:08.307+01:002010-08-07T13:22:08.307+01:00The systems don't "work" because muc...The systems don't "work" because much of what is done in the guise of child protection has another agenda entirely.<br /><br />This Times article from 2003 - ID card scheme for babies to help prevent child abuse - is as good a place to start as anywhere:<br /><br />http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article1111199.ece<br /><br />Every Child Matters (ECM) is the English equivalent of Getting It Right For Every Child (Girfec).<br /><br />They are constantly presented as having been developed as a result of the the Laming report (published on 28 January 2003) on the death of Victoria Climbié, or in Scotland, the Herbison report (released to the public by Highland Child Protection Committee on 7 March 2006) on the death of Danielle Reid.<br /><br />This is untrue and a disgusting exploitation of these deaths.<br /><br />Privacy and data-sharing: the way forward for public services – a performance and innovation report dated 2002 – was published by the Blair UK Government and set out (among other intended reforms) changes to children’s services which the public and professionals were led to believe were being instigated as a result of the Laming or Herbison reports.<br /><br />http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/media/cabinetoffice/strategy/assets/piu%20data.pdf<br /><br /><br />For Scotland's children report -Better integrated children's services , which clearly sets the the foundations for Girfec, was published in 2001.<br /><br />(sorry can't find a link for this atm)<br /><br />In turn, all these policies are part of the European e-government agenda which emerged from Lisbon in 2000.<br /><br />http://www.epractice.eu/en/news/283629<br /><br />So we end up with an SNP administration administering Blairite EU tosh: <br /><br />Girfec - gathering information for every citizen<br /><br />http://www.forhighlandschildren.org/htm/girfec/gir-publications/phnr-separate-forms&guidance-aug09/phnr-contents-list.pdf<br /><br />eCare - frame 17 speaks for itself<br /><br />http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/924/0009673.pdf<br /><br />I sincerely hope the graves of these poor children will not be robbed to further this agenda - which if not halted willlead to tragic consequences which are opposed to its alleged aims ie individual and family privacy will be destroyed , children will be damaged, valuable resources will be squandered, those at real risk will not get the help they so desperately need.Sheilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04979034123783374628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-73814258187594439162010-08-07T13:09:40.969+01:002010-08-07T13:09:40.969+01:00Tech I've put an update on the post explaining...Tech I've put an update on the post explaining my reasons for saying red-alert and also stating perhaps I should have just written alert.<br /><br />When did I say these things don't happen? Please try to read what I wrote. Yes I know you're angry but to pillory me isn't totally justified.<br /><br />Whether I believe you or not isn't the point. I've done the best I can to assist you by offering to publish a guest post. There's no point in me writing about home education as I can only write about the published guidelines and not the other side of the subject. As I said my experience was many years ago and it well out of date. By the way it was a positive one.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-8038770312109712812010-08-07T12:34:10.034+01:002010-08-07T12:34:10.034+01:00Ach it's fairly clear, both here and on my own...Ach it's fairly clear, both here and on my own blog comments to you that my main objection is the *red alert* to social services statement.<br /><br />It's easy for you to say these things don't happen, or happen in limited numbers when you aren't living within the community that is being targeted in the way that we have been this past 18 months.<br /><br />And you know, so many of us have DONE positive stories about home education until we are blue in the face, but there are certain areas of the media who, egged on by the previous government, have an anti home education agenda. We live with it, we do know what we're talking about believe it or not!Techhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05168914848999240658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-11837637839707426412010-08-07T12:21:01.381+01:002010-08-07T12:21:01.381+01:00For goodness sake Tech, all I did was write London...For goodness sake Tech, all I did was write London instead of Birmingham. Writing things like what exactly?<br /><br />From my own experience malicious referrals are made to social services every day of the week and I very much doubt if home educated children are high on the list. They certainly were few and far between but I speak from a distance of some years now.<br /><br />As I said to Elaine, I will amend the wording red alert. I wrote from an experience I had many years ago when it was the law that home educated children had to be monitored by the local authority. Now I realise that isn't the case here in Scotland.<br /><br />In some ways, in this particular case, surely social services should have been alerted as the mother and children had been reported as missing persons? Isn't child protection part of their remit?<br /><br />For those who have an interest in home education it may be better if they put forward the positives of it rather than considering themselves as some kind of victims. I'd willing publish a positive article from anyone who wanted to write it.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-1690746432551367432010-08-07T12:16:51.385+01:002010-08-07T12:16:51.385+01:00Yes lessons need to be learned but no one or even ...Yes lessons need to be learned but no one or even department are perfect.<br /><br />Why has the nationality of the parents got anything to do with the status of the parents marriage/kids schooling etc?<br /><br />Lothian and Borders found the children safe and well, what more is required? A constant surveillance on one family to make sure they are ok? How much money do you want to spend on the one case? How many other families do we not assist in order to keep an eye on one. <br /><br />Until Last Tuesday no one (even the husband as he didnt go hell for leather to cause a stink) were too concerned about the status of the family. <br /><br />I presume faxed documentation would through a dedicated line from the court to social work would suffice to enable the cogs to turn, what else would be required? An email that no one might not see? A phone call that has no paper trail, A courier to bring a bit of paper round. Is there a point to highlight the FAXED?<br /><br />Social work were asked to supervise the kids, not the police. How do we know the police didn't know about the order?<br /><br />There is no need for anyone to blame anyone here, there appears to be no need for any alarm bells to ring regarding the state of the mothers mental health as Im sure if it was a bitter divorce the father would have used this. <br /><br />As for the home schooling, lack of social workers and the police knew everything in my day, and thought up by left thinking politician, oh dear where did this come from? Home schooling wasnt heard of? No the kids were just down the pits/ selling matchsticks instead! What tosh Subrosa!<br /><br />I can only think that a nerve was touched in order for you to publish something that has so much opinion and not the usual high standard of well thought out arguement that is normally presented here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com