tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post6779187750409791388..comments2023-08-10T12:55:23.427+01:00Comments on SUBROSA: An Independent Scotland And The EUsubrosahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-13068546522747638392012-09-07T03:33:37.196+01:002012-09-07T03:33:37.196+01:00Oh KBW, I understood that the UK is one of only 4 ...Oh KBW, I understood that the UK is one of only 4 net contributors.<br /><br />Have you seen the mess Spain is in after accepting billions of euros for new road projects?<br /><br />Of course I would like to see our infrastructure improved but at what cost?<br /><br />The upgrading of the A9 is underway but the legalities, compulsory purchases etc take time. subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-27712644624659929052012-09-07T03:29:56.116+01:002012-09-07T03:29:56.116+01:00Yes it was addressed to you Peter. Apologies for ...Yes it was addressed to you Peter. Apologies for the comment system but I consider it the most suitable at present.<br /><br />The EU has certainly evolved. So much so that there is talk about an EU referendum in Germany. (Der Spiegel)subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-14653847714657692412012-09-06T11:11:09.827+01:002012-09-06T11:11:09.827+01:00CORRECTED POST:
Rosie the difference being that ...CORRECTED POST:<br /><br /><br />Rosie the difference being that the UK is a contributor not having to submit all their revenues to Brussels in the first place. That is a very significant difference. They have also been getting back much of the contributions which is now gradually being phased out. Scotland as an independent country will attract much more in the way of EU funding than it does now as the UK refunding deal blocked much of the assistance we could potentially qualify for. Another advantage of independence. For example we could see a lot more funding for the dreadful A9/ A82/ A96 roads. To have dangerous badly engineered roads such as these in 2012, is unacceptable and a glaring example of unionist impotence on Scotland's infrastructure. Key bored warrior.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05192681529004653727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-62913720879651180562012-09-06T11:05:50.095+01:002012-09-06T11:05:50.095+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Key bored warrior.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05192681529004653727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-11577863797794230412012-09-05T11:08:21.156+01:002012-09-05T11:08:21.156+01:00subrosa said: "Did you read the link to the S...subrosa said: "Did you read the link to the SDA's paper Peter?"<br /><br />Assuming this is addressed to me - the comments facility here is not conducive to such exchanges - I would say that I have read the SDA paper, and much else besides. That an alternative to the EU can be imagined doesn't mean that it actually exists in the real world.<br /><br />The European Union has evolved to fulfil a function. Any alternative will, by definition, have to fulfil the same function. Things which serve the same function tend to converge in terms of their design and operation. Any alternative to the EU would end up being identical to it in every significant regard.<br /><br />Some would say that we could prevent this happening. My response would to point out that, if we have the power to shape whatever this substitute is, then we have the power to shape the original. What is lacking - in the UK, at least - is the political will to engage.Peter A Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14204261467942498747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-9461302374390647412012-09-05T04:02:16.821+01:002012-09-05T04:02:16.821+01:00I'd agree with your first paragraph Jeanne and...I'd agree with your first paragraph Jeanne and as I said in the post, it would be sensible if someone in the pro-independence campaign mentioned a referendum regarding the EU.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-54828672849503120602012-09-05T04:00:22.763+01:002012-09-05T04:00:22.763+01:00No there's not much of a choice Ranty - but th...No there's not much of a choice Ranty - but there should be.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-9457979724455100662012-09-05T03:59:26.656+01:002012-09-05T03:59:26.656+01:00Pass JRB. :)Pass JRB. :)subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-12697215700318809382012-09-05T03:58:54.380+01:002012-09-05T03:58:54.380+01:00Mmm KBW, 'The EU does not take our revenues an...Mmm KBW, 'The EU does not take our revenues and hand back less in a block grant London does'.<br /><br />The UK is a net contributor to the EU.<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Unionsubrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-59374747377023487312012-09-05T03:51:36.187+01:002012-09-05T03:51:36.187+01:00Did you read the link to the SDA's paper Peter...Did you read the link to the SDA's paper Peter? <br /><br />I certainly think there are viable alternatives to the EU. Just because certain countries appear to be begging to join the Brussels club that doesn't mean Scotland should do the same.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-23411388083692437532012-09-05T03:48:05.189+01:002012-09-05T03:48:05.189+01:00Well said Aangirfan.Well said Aangirfan.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-80091022254307490392012-09-05T03:47:39.423+01:002012-09-05T03:47:39.423+01:00Hi Del. I suppose there are degrees of independen...Hi Del. I suppose there are degrees of independence because every country in the world is interdependent upon others is some way.<br /><br />I think Alex Salmond's shortly to be published Bill will answer your question.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-8919113821375930842012-09-05T03:44:31.735+01:002012-09-05T03:44:31.735+01:00Neither can I EP.Neither can I EP.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-54815239879465910502012-09-05T03:43:55.489+01:002012-09-05T03:43:55.489+01:00I'd agree the SNP mustn't alienate busines...I'd agree the SNP mustn't alienate business KBW, but they could discuss the EU and say it would be settled via a referendum once we're independent.<br /><br />The problem with the EU is that negotiations are rather time-wasting as decisions appear to be made long before anyone sits round a table.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-56413947975268532162012-09-05T03:41:14.471+01:002012-09-05T03:41:14.471+01:00We must agree to disagree OR. :)We must agree to disagree OR. :)subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-36872107465290414122012-09-05T03:40:34.072+01:002012-09-05T03:40:34.072+01:00Ranty as you know I read your posts with interest....Ranty as you know I read your posts with interest.<br /><br />The example you quote has been repeated in several areas of the media yet nobody of note has highlighted it.<br /><br />Are we all so apathetic?subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-2034312625132536452012-09-05T03:39:03.005+01:002012-09-05T03:39:03.005+01:00Jim, I don't think all SNP members are Marxist...Jim, I don't think all SNP members are Marxists but certainly a Marxist type seems to be to the fore currently.subrosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-52613364633273757882012-09-05T00:53:58.332+01:002012-09-05T00:53:58.332+01:00This would be one of those things which, it seems ...This would be one of those things which, it seems to me, would be well put up for a referendum if Scotland becomes independent. That a political party now in power should decide that seems unwise.<br /><br />And I will repeat what I said to Apogee in the last thread. I get tired of the assumption that I believe in self-determination except in the US. If the majority of people of Texas (or a more apt example of Hawaii which was seized illegally) wanted independence, they would have every right to it. <br /><br />People have a right to self-determination. After they achieve that, they have decisions to make, often very serious ones. Membership in NATO and the EU would surely be amongst those--after elections.<br /><br />It took almost two decades for the US to figure out how to set up and run their government after declaring independence. I suspect it would take Scotland a lot less time than that, but it WOULD take some time.<br /><br />It's up to the Scots.J. R. Tomlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01109874615059334200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-17813548265803658722012-09-05T00:12:54.062+01:002012-09-05T00:12:54.062+01:00CR
"I think I have it now.
If you disagree ...CR<br /><br />"I think I have it now.<br /><br />If you disagree with independence you are a numpty."<br /><br />Ah poor didumsfootdeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03887499078085037185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-35592637178418872652012-09-04T22:44:40.367+01:002012-09-04T22:44:40.367+01:00I think I have it now.
If you disagree with indep...I think I have it now.<br /><br />If you disagree with independence you are a numpty.<br /><br />If you disagree with any aspect of the means to gain independence you are a numpty.<br /><br />If you agree with everything KBW says, you are okay.<br /><br />No need to doubt, folks. No need to question anything at all.<br /><br />KBW says that an "independent" Scotland reliant on the EU numpties is better than being reliant on the Westminster numpties.<br /><br />Not much of a choice, is it?<br /><br />Either set of numpties will do infinitely more harm than all of the WMDs that reside on Scottish soil.<br /><br />Put me down as a "No".<br /><br />CR.Captain Rantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07839241144954596066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-63020777696921820592012-09-04T22:18:14.669+01:002012-09-04T22:18:14.669+01:00… and prithee tell me, how a simple man as I, am t...… and prithee tell me, how a simple man as I, am to form a balanced judgement on so important an issue, when faced with the equally unacceptable extremes of opposing opinion.JRBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01864418763227369458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-26207834545976030062012-09-04T21:46:45.611+01:002012-09-04T21:46:45.611+01:00Peter you have put the case perfectly but it will ...Peter you have put the case perfectly but it will go over the heads of those who have posted on here as in the Capns case, he seems to blow of with out reading anything, he claims to have read the Lisbon treaty several times yet he has not been able to see the gaping holes in his arguments.<br /><br />The fact is the EU does not tell us that our referendum may be illegal, London does. The EU does not take our revenues and hand back less in a block grant London does. The EU does not force us to accept WMDs 30 miles from our most densely populated area, London does. The EU does not send our youngsters to die in foreign wars, London does. The EU does not sneer that we are subsidy junkies and cannot be trusted to govern our selves and handle the volatile oil price, London does. The EU would not have us sitting in the corridor whilst our fishing industry was being sold, London did.Key bored warrior.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05192681529004653727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-55989312109573097842012-09-04T21:32:55.251+01:002012-09-04T21:32:55.251+01:00"Why is the SNP so determined to be dependent..."Why is the SNP so determined to be dependent upon Brussels yet so determined to be independent of London?"<br /><br />Without accepting the pejorative, "dependent", I would point out that this question only makes sense if the two unions are equivalent to some significant extent. This is not the case.<br /><br />The difference can be summed up in one word - subsidiarity. The EU explicitly acknowledges and protects the sovereign status of member states. This stands in stark contrast to the centuries-long project to subsume the nations of the UK into a contrived entity called "Britain".<br /><br />The question is also only meaningful if there is some viable alternative to membership of the EU. And that is a case which has yet to be made.Peter A Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14204261467942498747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-25840415261126651912012-09-04T21:32:35.846+01:002012-09-04T21:32:35.846+01:00Captain Ranty good at handing out the advice which...Captain Ranty good at handing out the advice which he then fails to take. This rahter suppers your particuolar boat sir good luck to you.<br /><br /><br />"However it does include in it a strong implication of a unilateral right to withdraw. This is through the fact the state would decide "in accordance with its own constitutional requirements" and that the end of the treaties' application in said state is not dependent on any agreement being reached (it would occur after two years regardless)." "Key bored warrior.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05192681529004653727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-28438875729219218502012-09-04T21:06:07.854+01:002012-09-04T21:06:07.854+01:00Scotland will not be independent if it is in the E...Scotland will not be independent if it is in the European Union or in NATO.<br /><br />- Aangirfan<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com