tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post1174595045434592739..comments2023-08-10T12:55:23.427+01:00Comments on SUBROSA: Independence And 'Yes Scotland'subrosahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00151702590329788260noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-45277918628389238572012-09-05T00:45:24.759+01:002012-09-05T00:45:24.759+01:00 Apogee let me remind you that Texas along with a ... Apogee let me remind you that Texas along with a number of other states were kept in the union by military force, not a situation I happen to approve of.<br /><br />What if the majority of citizens wanted to leave the union? I say, they would have EVERY RIGHT TO DO SO. So does the UN.J. R. Tomlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01109874615059334200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-48902944578882573132012-09-04T14:35:14.324+01:002012-09-04T14:35:14.324+01:00Sobers, I think you're measuring a future Scot...Sobers, I think you're measuring a future Scottish political environment against the current Westminster political environment.<br /><br />This is one of the things that will be first to go and with not having FPTP voting at Holyrood, I still have some optimism. <br /><br />What ever government wins the first Scottish General election, I don't think they could afford not to offer a vote on the EU.<br /><br />English Pensioner, we in Scotland get a higher per capita spend than parts of England, its not higher than London for example. From memory I think Scotland lies third after NI and London, its also a fact we pay more in tax as a country than we get back.<br /><br />As for voting intentions re Westminster and Holyrood, that isn't Scotland's fault, its the morally bankrupt politicians and the daft whip system in place. SNP MP's don't vote on English only issues.<br /><br />I would've thought the main reason for wanting English independence is the same as for those wanting Scottish independence; to be away from westminster style politics and the grasping entitlement of the british state.<br /><br />And yup, everything costs a bloody fortune these days. When I fill my car up (I say fill, I mean put a dribble of fuel in it) I often go home and sob myself to sleep.pa_broon74https://www.blogger.com/profile/01915208411019621104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-39551865785208950452012-09-04T13:52:26.904+01:002012-09-04T13:52:26.904+01:00Why do I want English Independence?
I regret to sa...Why do I want English Independence?<br />I regret to say mainly because of the Scots as a nation. From my point of view, they get a higher per capita share of the national income than the English. They have a higher per capita representation in the House of Commons. What is most resented by the English is that the Scottish Parliament votes one way for Scotland (University fees, NHS, elderly care, etc) and their MPs come to Westminster and vote against the English having the same things.<br />Furthermore, I believe that England could stand on its own feet as an independent country.<br />My ideal solution would be a US type of set up, with the four parts of the UK having the independence that the individual States have in America, with the UK parliament (at Westminster or elsewhere) dealing with common matters such as foreign policy and defence.<br />Incidentally, the US States have far more independence from central government than we have from Brussels!<br />Incidentally, I have nothing against the Scots as individuals (My son-in-law was born in Edinburgh), I have always found them friendly and helpful and enjoy holidays in Scotland - but the prices seem to have gone through the roof this year!English Pensionerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15271488641341955140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-82081066678289982842012-09-04T13:43:52.579+01:002012-09-04T13:43:52.579+01:00pa_broon74, if you think the politicians (of all h...pa_broon74, if you think the politicians (of all hues) will give you a vote on whether a newly independent Scotland is in or out of the EU, I'm afraid you are in for a big disappointment. Such a decision will never be allowed anywhere near 'the people'.Sobershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11407417389022146963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-39188365331424234162012-09-04T12:45:24.445+01:002012-09-04T12:45:24.445+01:00I think Salmond is basically holding his weesht at...I think Salmond is basically holding his weesht at the moment, there are those who are keen on the EU (not me as it happens, at least not in its current form.)<br /><br />I also think the SNP are keen not to rock the boat or scare people, currently we're in the EU, to say outright that would change would be rocking the boat.<br /><br />We've seen it with the chat about NATO, the other parties are hardly ever questioned about policy, when the SNP have a rethink, according to the press its as if the sky has fallen in.<br /><br />I would also be horrified at the thought of blindly entering the EU, I just don't think it'll happen or at least, I think we'll be given the choice.<br /><br />If we're not, then I'll be pissed off.pa_broon74https://www.blogger.com/profile/01915208411019621104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-85048650362366217942012-09-04T11:08:10.657+01:002012-09-04T11:08:10.657+01:00Pa,
The EU question is a central plank. Wee Eck r...Pa,<br /><br />The EU question is a central plank. Wee Eck refuses to give a clear answer.<br /><br />Unlike the windmills. He never fails to mention them. They are a huge part of his "sustainable Scotland" pitch. <br /><br />It is right for a country to seek independence. It is right for a nation to make its own way in the world and I have never doubted Scotland's ability to do just that.<br /><br />But I am horrified at the thought of Scotland ridding itself of Westminster only to willingly and blindly follow the diktats of the EU.<br /><br />CR.Captain Rantyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07839241144954596066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-75363371463113193442012-09-04T10:54:54.678+01:002012-09-04T10:54:54.678+01:00One of the most attractive things about having an ...One of the most attractive things about having an independent government for Scotland in Holyrood is our ability to kick the buggers out if we don't like them, as evidenced by the rout of labour front benchers in 2011.<br /><br />I'm not sure about the EU, I think there are advantages to some sort of cooperation although, not as we are experiencing at the moment under Westminster stewardship.<br /><br />My point on independence would be, I think its a wee bit disingenuous to say you 'don't know what it means' when its really quite obvious.<br /><br />The SNP are the governing party at the moment and are the main force behind the independence referendum (although they're trying not to be,) those who say the SNP/Alex Salmond should be outlining what they'd do after a Yes in 2014 then using it as a stick to beat them with are falling into a unionist trap.<br /><br />It doesn't matter what Alex Salmond says now, but it does matter when people start muddying the waters on independence with talk about being dragged into the EU and/or windmill fixation.<br /><br />Those are political ideals, independence is much more important than that and, people seem to be putting the cart before the horse and unionist love it because its playing right into their barn, so to speak.<br /><br />And no, I'm not 'blindly' voting Yes in 2014, I'm voting for the ability to choose.pa_broon74https://www.blogger.com/profile/01915208411019621104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-87529020097449333332012-09-04T09:56:29.777+01:002012-09-04T09:56:29.777+01:00J.R.Tomlin, good morning.If I understand your poin...J.R.Tomlin, good morning.If I understand your points correctly,what you are saying is that Scotland should be completely independent after a successful referendum,free to make her own decisions.That would be the ideal, but there are a lot of strange definitions of independence in our ruling classes, and vested interests as well. Imagine Texas wanting to leave the Union.....!Apogeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13942349358439102449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-1553394463078388562012-09-04T01:04:13.800+01:002012-09-04T01:04:13.800+01:00So a political party that may not even be in power...So a political party that may not even be in power after independence is supposed to decide exactly what the people of Scotland will vote on after the fact. Does it not occur to you that that wouldn't be exactly democratic?<br /><br />Do you really think the US knew all their coming policies when we became independent? That Canada did? Australia? Of COURSE not. The US didn't even decide on a constitution until seventeen years after declaring independence.<br /><br />The point of independence is that the people of the nation vote to decide those things. Now if you'd rather leave it up to Westminster, that's another matter.<br /><br />But if you are independent, then the people of the nation decide. They aren't told in advance and not given a choice. J. R. Tomlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01109874615059334200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-38828988642696699762012-09-03T22:40:23.666+01:002012-09-03T22:40:23.666+01:00Crinkly, good evening to you. Very well said, tota...Crinkly, good evening to you. Very well said, totally agree with you.<br />Would make the point that it only works if the right question is asked.<br />Westminster will be doing its best to ensure that the wrong question is asked, it will need very careful vetting by the best of Scotlands constitutional lawyers because it will have a booby-trap somewhere,that is the nature of the beast.Apogeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13942349358439102449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-42579803981665616522012-09-03T22:28:16.812+01:002012-09-03T22:28:16.812+01:00Robert George, good evening to you.
The EU many ag...Robert George, good evening to you.<br />The EU many agree on, the windmills are the result of politicians not understanding what they are being told, and not knowing enough to recognise a scam when they see one,and then buying buying it.Its the people who are paid to vet these things that didnt tell them the real truth that should be.....fired? Apogeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13942349358439102449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-49516280548192224722012-09-03T22:17:15.347+01:002012-09-03T22:17:15.347+01:00Dubbieside ,Joe also left out the USA, they had to...Dubbieside ,Joe also left out the USA, they had to fight for their independence as well!Apogeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13942349358439102449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-7195000662492450312012-09-03T22:13:00.146+01:002012-09-03T22:13:00.146+01:00Joe Public ,Hi.The 195 might not all be free, but ...Joe Public ,Hi.The 195 might not all be free, but Independence is a good place to start from, remember that Rhodesia(as was) was handed over to the bad guys, as we found out, by the British Govt. after a protracted war in which the rebels were aided by...<br />the British government! Could the same happen here?Apogeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13942349358439102449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-59320902313834999142012-09-03T21:37:34.808+01:002012-09-03T21:37:34.808+01:00English pensioner, good evening.
I think a lot of ...English pensioner, good evening.<br />I think a lot of people would like England to be independent, of the EUSSR for a start. A lot of Scots would like that too. How we would fund independence, well now a lot of people are telling Scots how poor they will be, I am still waiting for the first appraisal of how rich(or poor)England will be if/when Scotland leaves,no one talks about it?Why not?Apogeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13942349358439102449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-31225067679591760032012-09-03T21:27:10.255+01:002012-09-03T21:27:10.255+01:00Scribblercraig, Some good points but I would sugg...Scribblercraig, Some good points but I would suggest that the primary point is Independence means exactly that, not being beholden to, or in the thrall of another power or entity. It means starting with a clean slate,other than that then you are not free, you are not independent.Apogeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13942349358439102449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-28829466521267236152012-09-03T21:19:20.458+01:002012-09-03T21:19:20.458+01:00Captain Ranty. That seems a fair assessment of the...Captain Ranty. That seems a fair assessment of the situation.Apogeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13942349358439102449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-30581940679130274882012-09-03T21:16:43.029+01:002012-09-03T21:16:43.029+01:00KBW. Good evening and your points are noted.KBW. Good evening and your points are noted.Apogeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13942349358439102449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-40273531218139629562012-09-03T21:12:21.450+01:002012-09-03T21:12:21.450+01:00And Sobers, on the point of UDI , we are in a trea...And Sobers, on the point of UDI , we are in a treaty with England et al, and we could just walk away if the people so wished it. Messy,but it could be done and seemingly, legally! Apogeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13942349358439102449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-14410043176724356172012-09-03T21:10:26.046+01:002012-09-03T21:10:26.046+01:00In a few days Westminster through the mouth of Osb...In a few days Westminster through the mouth of Osborne will announce £40bn of investment in projects of national importance. <br /><br />Not that he wants to invest the £40bn, just that enough of his venal backers want the money invested in projects that will suit their simmering cook books.<br /><br />Two things to look out for - the projects of 'national importance' will be predominately to the benefit of London and the South East.<br /><br />The second is it will be paid for by an acceleration of welfare and benefit cuts. In fact they have already enacted a 10% cut in council tax allocation remits for 2013 giving local councils the Hobson's choice to either decrease the benefit allowance or increase council tax.<br /><br />This is underhand governance Westminster style -you have no option Westminster is sovereign and you're the pig in its poke.<br /><br />2014 is scheduled for a referendum, not an election on whether you would like to change the swine herder, but whether you want to get out of the poke and claim your sovereignty as a sentient being.<br /><br />That is the only offer Independence affords you, the right and opportunity for the very first time in modern history for Scotland to be shaped as a democratic Nation under its sovereign people.<br /><br />Success at the referendum only allows you entry to the starting line.Crinkly & Ragged Arsed Philosophershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08902364411241935656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-59055255785299373462012-09-03T21:08:30.026+01:002012-09-03T21:08:30.026+01:00HI there, Sobers. I would agree that negotiation i...HI there, Sobers. I would agree that negotiation is the best way, but there has to be good will and honesty on both sides.Look at the history of the countries that have "won" independence, even within the Commonwealth there has been very few countries that got Independence without a fight,which doesn't show much good will on the part of the ruling/colonial power. How has the negotiations been here, so far?<br /><br />Apogeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13942349358439102449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-75448168776487944912012-09-03T20:52:03.167+01:002012-09-03T20:52:03.167+01:00"Independence is not a universal panacea for ..."Independence is not a universal panacea for the people." said Joe Public. On that basis Scotland should stay dependent then Joe? Another bizarre notion.<br /><br />The facts are against you Joe. Independence is the natural order of things for most countries in the world.<br /><br />The people best placed to make decisions regarding Scotland are the people who live and work here not some foreign government 400 miles away.<br /><br />Do you hand your salary to your neighbour every month and wait for him to hand you back some money as a block grant? And then tell you that you cannot end this state of affairs because it could be open to legal challenge? How humiliated would you be? Would you not feel the pity or bewilderment or contempt of your other neighbours?Key bored warrior.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05192681529004653727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-81010895423740238122012-09-03T20:47:49.418+01:002012-09-03T20:47:49.418+01:00Hi there, JRB. As you suggest we should all be sho...Hi there, JRB. As you suggest we should all be shouting at our MPs and MSPs until they are thoroughly conversant with the message we are sending,in some cases they are deaf, but in others they have there own agenda, we have to change this.Apogeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13942349358439102449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-88274639225622021362012-09-03T20:39:41.267+01:002012-09-03T20:39:41.267+01:00The Last Of The Few, Hi there, fully agree, withou...The Last Of The Few, Hi there, fully agree, without a lot more detail,most people likely to vote will will back away until they know a whole lot more.Apogeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13942349358439102449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-32624880771534137402012-09-03T20:34:22.752+01:002012-09-03T20:34:22.752+01:00Hi Captain.Thank you. Like yourself, I get a feeli...Hi Captain.Thank you. Like yourself, I get a feeling that no one has thought it through, we are being shepherded to a particular position, that of being handed to the EUSSR,almost as a gift and looking at the place at the moment,and extrapolating far into the future, its not a place I want to be gifted to ! Apogeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13942349358439102449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8116690042850060767.post-60001140615330167462012-09-03T20:18:47.032+01:002012-09-03T20:18:47.032+01:00I agree with what you say, and have raised the EU ...I agree with what you say, and have raised the EU issue with the SNP in the past. <br /><br />The other elephant in the room (lucky Scotland gets two!) is the question of the useless, pointless, bloodsucking windmills. But that seems to be the equivalent of Pandora's box these days. I really HATE to agree with ridiculous Trump (and maybe that's what the SNP are banking on), but he's right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com